The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[rabidrabbit]

...
With regards to all those who are saying, or implying, that Move can match Kinect as it has a camera also, I'd just like to ask, "Where is Fitness Evolved" for the PS3?,

Well, not for PS3, but for PS2 there was a fitness game EyeToy: Kinetic (well that's a familiar name ) that used full body tracking, and that was released already in 2005!

"Where is Dance Central" for the PS3? Where, even, is Joyride for the PS3?

SingStar Dance, ever heard of that?
There was a Joyride style game again for the PS2 and EyeToy, that hoverboard racing game AntiGrav, that used similar gameplay mechanics as Joyride (also nearly 6 years ago )

If the PS3 has been able to do those titles all along, why has no developer bothered?

They have, already in PS2 era. Maybe they didn't bother because they realised those games weren't that fun due to the input method being just that bit too inaccurate and laggy to be frustrating after the novelty has worn off (and you've evolved beyond that "casual gamer" state... do you think people who begin as casual gamers that can't understand an input method if it has a button or two, really do not evolve??... "hmmm, I think it's nice that this game recognises my body movement and broad gestures, but it would be nice if there was a faster way of selecting menu items, or if the game was able to react faster when I want to kill that alien... I'm feeling a little silly already by shouting "pew, pew" to shoot.. I'm 30 already, I could learn a more precise input method)

So overall, to reiterate my main points again why I'm not sold on the Move set, it seems overly complicated and precise for "the casuals", where neither complication nor (especially) precision are what the target audience are after. And for titles such as shooters, it offers unprecedented precision, but in my opinion is too uncomfortable a control method for "hardcore" gamers.

As I said, a casual gamer will not remain so casual, and why wouldn't a casual gamer want / need precise input??? They surely wouldn't accept inprecise and overly laggy input in a standard >TV remote, would they, why should / would they accept / want such experience in games? That's just severely underestimating people.
I mean, all this "casual gamer" category is just wrong! A casual gamer is capable (and willing even) of more than jumping and flailing in front of the TV to control some slow, unchallenging game. The novelty in motion control has already worn off because of Wii and EyeToy, the casuals are already looking at the next step, and that might just be accuracy, speed and variety.

If you doubt the latter, grab a remote control or microphone or something and aim it at the TV for 15 minutes, pulling an imaginary trigger while shooting imaginary targets. You can also hold the DS3 in your left hand if you like and move things around a bit.
Though fitness games will still probably draw a sizeable group to whatever motion controlled system. All those gadgets and get-slim-quick solutions still being sold in TV Shops en masse prove that there's a profitable market for gullible fools who think they magically get fit by minimal exersize if they just pay for it.

I did this a couple of weeks ago (I chose to have the O.C. on, which make it more fun) and I had terrible wrist-ache, along with some ache in my tri. And that was exactly 15 minutes, with the last couple of minutes being very unpleasant. Obviously the Move controller will be better balanced, but you are still going to be holding your hand at an unnatural angle for extended periods to "aim", so I can't see the real thing being much more comfortable.

I haven't experienced any fatigue or pains using Wiimote and nunchuck in Zelda: Twilight Princess, Wii Sports and Mario Galaxy, nor have I heard of such reports. How should Move be worse??

Or maybe, 4 years later, I was hoping for something a little more compelling than WiiHD.

Well, that's exactly what's making me doubt Kinect.
Maybe, 6 years later I am hoping Kinect would be something a little more compelling than EyeToy.

 

[Arwin]

Exactly my thoughts. So far I think I have only seen the fight game and the archery using two Move wands.

Beach Volleyball and the Gladiator thing in Sports Champions also support two wands. The Fight: Lights Out is so far the only one that actually requires two of them. The rest I think is limited to two player stuff, though perhaps you can play some of the two player on-rails shooters also with two guns for one player.

I expect the fight game to hardly use any buttons at all during fights and the archery game only using the trigger and action button for holding and releasing the arrow and possibly only the buttons on one of the wands.

Correct, you press one button (forgot which) to hold the arrow, and you have to keep holding it from the quiver to the shot.

Maybe the archery game in SC can be played with one controller?

Again, all games in SC can be played with one controller.

I also expect that Dr. Marks and Antons AR demos used the action and trigger buttons to pinch and hold stuff, I guess that comes very natural and does not need elaborate instructions explaining the functions of the left respectively the right wand buttons.

Exactly. This has been an important design focus for the Move controller.

They just announced a DDR supporting the Move by the way:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-10-dancedancerevolution-ps3-supports-move

I have been a huge fan of the DDR series in the past, and I've missed one aspect from DDR from many modern guitar hero and dance style games: DDR always gave you ok, good, great and perfect timing ratings for every step. I hope they can add something like that kind of depth to this game. We'll have to wait and see though ... Right now it sounds like they'll be using the basic Move type tracking, though maybe using proper 3D tracking versus the Wii version (I hope), and from the sounds of it also some of the 'grab stuff from your livingroom in 2D' that's also in Beat Sketchers? So that seems to be available as example code or in the library now as well.

I'm not expecting too much from this DDR release, but I'll definitely keep a close eye on it. I played a LOT of DDR (enough at least to beat most songs in my imported, 111 songs featuring 10th edition at level 8)

 

[goonergaz]

It's games like DDR that will take away another reason to buy Kinect - or at least make it harder to justify (for me anyway)

WRT augmented reality - I can't think of anything else that will make games even more accessible than that, seeing yourself with the actual item in your hand...what barrier is left?

 

[corduroygt]

I can't believe nobody thought of making a free weight attachment to the wiimote yet. It would make lifting weights fun...Maybe they'll make one for the move.

 

[patsu]

Strangely, I'd have though that something heavier and with a larger base would be more stable than something that is so light that even the barest movement of the USB cable along its length could cause it to come tumbling.

There will be a variety of clips and clamps available for both solutions (in fact, I believe some have been posted later in the thread) for users in a similar situation to you.

No, no, no, no. Lightweight is good. In fact, if there's a way to get rid of the USB cable while retaining at least the same bandwidth and latency, I'd go wireless camera too.

Because... that way, I can do mobile/roaming camera, or even robotic camera with a relatively small battery !

The base of the PSEye is rubberized and weighted, so it won't topple easily. However if there is not enough space behind the camera, the cable may push the camera forward.

EDIT:

Will games such as Socom have 2 seperate lobbies, one for those with Move and one with the DS3? Or will those games (as they state with Socom) spend time "balancing" to ensure that Move players have no advantage? If so, balancing will either mean reducing the accuracy of Move or making it easier (more lienient auto-targeting?) to get kills with the DS3. Neither is ideal, imho.

Yes, that's my concern with PS Move. I hope developers are brave enough to explore an unbalanced set up. In particular, I hope they give PS Move user class/role a different set of actions (melee, better coordination with teammates) since it's more versatile. With 3DTV, some people may be better at grenade and grenade launcher. Some FPSs like KZ2 already have soldier classes with very different capabilities.

My problem with the Move setup is that it's being sold as a more precise Wiimote for party games, where precision isn't needed (indeed, precision is something of an anathema to pick-up-and-play party games)...

They made a mistake positioning PS Move as a more precise controller. It's too narrow a benefit.

Nonetheless, I don't think casual games don't need precision. It's just that the precision could manifest itself differently in casual games. e.g., Wiimote+ feels more natural and responsive than Wiimote in games like Tennis.

By being more precise in 3D space, it may also enable new (casual) gameplay (e.g., building Lego set).


Ironically, it means amongst other things, the precision should allow PS Move to "connect" better with the player's intention (PSEye can detect player emotion too !). But the name "connect" has been taken.

and also as a better way to play "hardcore" games, when it is neither as complete a solution is the Keyboard/Mouse offering, nor as comfortable for extended play sessions as the current DS3. Added to that the requirement to mix and match 4 seperate peripherals just to be "not quite as good" as what is already available for the PS3 and it just comes across (to me) as unfocused and overly complex.

Keyboard + mouse requires getting used to in the living room. My neck hurts when I use them too long in my living room say... for PS3 Linux.

 

[goonergaz]

They made a mistake positioning PS Move as a more precise controller. It's too narrow a benefit.

I tend to disagree here, and this is why...

Casual gamers don't care, they will automatically ignore that - but see no wires and augmented reality as a benefit over Wii. However, serious gamers will hear 'super accurate' and praise the lord that finally they can enjoy games with (hopefully) minimal frustrations (like I've experienced with the Wii).

Win-win.

 

[Rolf N]

NYes, that's my concern with PS Move. I hope developers are brave enough to explore an unbalanced set up. In particular, I hope they give PS Move user class/role a different set of actions (melee, better coordination with teammates) since it's more versatile. With 3DTV, some people may be better at grenade and grenade launcher. Some FPSs like KZ2 already have soldier classes with very different capabilities.

There's a bit too much concern going around with separating control schemes where I feel it would actually help to pool everyone together, depending on perspective. For Sony, if people with Move turn out to win more often than not in a shooter, that provides pressure for other players to get on the bandwagon as well. Something to aspire to. Online shooters are all about competing. If that mechanism can actually help to build a broader hardware base, why not go for it?

 

[Arwin]

My first instinct would also be to simply make no distinction. All I would do, is show who is using what, much like GT5 does with racing wheels, and let things evolve from there.

 

[upnorthsox]

I would agree with you 2, let it evolve naturally amongst the players. The worst thing they could do is overreact to the whinners/whinning, I guess in that regards it's like kids.

 

[patsu]

I tend to disagree here, and this is why...

Casual gamers don't care, they will automatically ignore that

... and think that it's a Wii-too.

- but see no wires and augmented reality as a benefit over Wii. However, serious gamers will hear 'super accurate' and praise the lord that finally they can enjoy games with (hopefully) minimal frustrations (like I've experienced with the Wii).

Core gamers may like precision, but many would be sceptical due to widespread belief that Wii is awkward for core gaming ("Why change when DS3 is not broken ?"). Not to mention some games are said to be laggy, or at least more laggy than DS3.

There are more to PS Move than pure precision.


EDIT:

My first instinct would also be to simply make no distinction. All I would do, is show who is using what, much like GT5 does with racing wheels, and let things evolve from there.

They may need some level of play testing and balancing. e.g., If one loses too often, he may rage quit and sell the game. MAG suffers from this in larger maps partly because players do not understand the game, and partly because of unbalanced maps -- while Zipper tunes the game. OTOH, RFOM did very well with 2 different player classes and a large arsenal of weapons.

 

[goonergaz]

... and think that it's a Wii-too.

Core gamers may like precision, but many would be sceptical due to widespread belief that Wii is awkward for core gaming ("Why change when DS3 is not broken ?"). Not to mention some games are said to be laggy.

There are more to PS Move than pure precision.

A "Wii-too" that puts you in the game and doesn't have wires.

I agree to a certain extent about core gamers, but they'll be people like me who read loads of stuff on the internet and will know how good/bad it ends up.

Certainly I'm happy for throw ~£30 to test it out, why not - if I hate it sell it on for little loss.

 

[patsu]

It will take time to understand the precision. Need to experience the games themselves to know the difference. Many won't care (about the wires) as long as the experience is similar, and they are happy with Wiimote and Wiimote+. Besides, things like "Augmented Reality" is not commonly associated with precision (by the casuals) even if it may benefit from better precision.

 

[upnorthsox]

... and think that it's a Wii-too.



Core gamers may like precision, but many would be sceptical due to widespread belief that Wii is awkward for core gaming ("Why change when DS3 is not broken ?"). Not to mention some games are said to be laggy, or at least more laggy than DS3.

There are more to PS Move than pure precision.


EDIT:


They may need some level of play testing and balancing. e.g., If one loses too often, he may rage quit and sell the game. MAG suffers from this in larger maps partly because players do not understand the game, and partly because of unbalanced maps -- while Zipper tunes the game.

People rage quit all the time, you don't go changing the gameplay because of it. Over time there may need to be some adjustments but I wouldn't do anything premptively.

 

[upnorthsox]

It will take time to understand the precision. Need to experience the games themselves to know the difference. Many won't care (about the wires) as long as the experience is similar, and they are happy with Wiimote and Wiimote+. Besides, things like "Augmented Reality" is not commonly associated with precision (by the casuals) even if it may benefit from better precision.

If Move offers an advantage then initially mediocre players will benefit most (yay for me) but over time cream rises and the better players will be.........better.....

.......Unless they rage quit, but then how good were they really?

 

[Crossbar]

Core gamers may like precision, but many would be sceptical due to widespread belief that Wii is awkward for core gaming ("Why change when DS3 is not broken ?"). Not to mention some games are said to be laggy, or at least more laggy than DS3.

There are more to PS Move than pure precision.


EDIT:


They may need some level of play testing and balancing. e.g., If one loses too often, he may rage quit and sell the game. MAG suffers from this in larger maps partly because players do not understand the game, and partly because of unbalanced maps -- while Zipper tunes the game. OTOH, RFOM did very well with 2 different player classes and a large arsenal of weapons.

There is also the possibility that Move will bring in new people to the FPS arena if it help lower the entry threshold, perhaps PC-people like me who find the controller twitchy and inferior compared to a kbd/mouse setup. The DS3 controller may still be superior in the hands of veteran console player, but the wand may lower the threshold for newbies to become competetive.

If there is shown to be a slight advantage for the Move controller for an experienced gamer we may see a slow transition just like we saw on the PC, when people started to move from a kbd only to a kbd+mouse setup.

All changes may not be so drastic, it will be really interesting to see which route Sony will chose for SOCOM and Killzone 3.

 

[zed]

Well, not for PS3, but for PS2 there was a fitness game EyeToy: Kinetic (well that's a familiar name ) that used full body tracking, and that was released already in 2005!

Never heard of it but a quick google

now if sony were feeling real mean they can bring out a range of games called
ps3 kinetic dancing etc just to muddle the waters
Surely MS must of known about these titles before they came up with the name kinect?

 

[upnorthsox]

Sony's biggest potential casual market initially are those who already own a PS3 for BRD only playing but may be interested in some motion gaming if they don't have to have 2 consoles to do it. This market dovetails nicely with their existing core gamers and would explain their current marketing approach.

 

[patsu]

People rage quit all the time, you don't go changing the gameplay because of it. Over time there may need to be some adjustments but I wouldn't do anything premptively.

Well... they rage quit and stop playing the game altogether. It's different from just rage quit.

Zipper will probably take their MAG experience to Socom 4. So I guess they will do whatever necessary to keep the user base as they tweak the Move control scheme.

 

[patsu]

Never heard of it but a quick google
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/EyeToy_Kinetic.jpg

(!)

 

[patsu]

MS responded to the sign language patent:
http://kotaku.com/5609840/kinect-dumbed-down-to-save-money-cant-read-sign-language

Responding to the claims made in the patent, Microsoft has told Kotaku "We are excited about the potential of Kinect and its potential to impact gaming and entertainment. Microsoft files lots of patent applications to protect our intellectual property, not all of which are brought to market right away. Kinect that is shipping this holiday will not support sign language."

...

The original Kinect had a much higher resolution (over twice that of the final model's 320x240), and as such, was able to not only recognise the limbs of a player as the current model version can, but their fingers as well (which the current version can't). And when the hardware could recognise fingers, it would have been able to read sign language.