The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[Crossbar]

Indeed. It makes you wonder why there was no navigation shown at E309, why there was navigation but no dedicated controller at TGS09 a few months later and that the actual navigation controller wasn't actually shown to us until GDC this year, pretty much around the same time as the original release date for Move was supposed to be.

Specs can change from announcement to launch. Natal is an example of that, and the PS3 was much reduced from announcement to launch.

But the addition of a completely new peripheral from the announcement of Move (or unnamed, as it was at the time), along with the 6 month delay from the original launch date, seems to heavily imply the navcon wasn't originally envisaged.

Neither Sony or MS showed the final design of Move or Kinect at last years E3, they had not even decided on the final names at the time.

Regarding the subcontroller it is not really an essential peripheral, the DS3 will provide the same functionality. If you rest the DS3 in your lap it´s not that bad to play with one hand.

I am not buying a subcontroller myself unless I see some clear advantages, I am looking forward to playing Heavy Rain later this fall with a wand and the DS3.

Edit: I put the subcontroller in the same category as the PlayStation Move Gun Attachment. A nice to have for certain games, but not a must.

 

[Arwin]

Indeed. It makes you wonder why there was no navigation shown at E309, why there was navigation but no dedicated controller at TGS09 a few months later and that the actual navigation controller wasn't actually shown to us until GDC this year, pretty much around the same time as the original release date for Move was supposed to be.

Specs can change from announcement to launch. Natal is an example of that, and the PS3 was much reduced from announcement to launch.

But the addition of a completely new peripheral from the announcement of Move (or unnamed, as it was at the time), along with the 6 month delay from the original launch date, seems to heavily imply the navcon wasn't originally envisaged.

I think that is correct - Sony stated as much. They came up with the Move controller first, and their original intent was to use that by itself, or otherwise two Move controllers at once. Then they found that some games could be easily 'upgraded' with Move controls if the rest of the controls stayed on the analog stick (just replacing the 'pointing' functionality), for which the DualShock + Move combo was initially used, as demoed by Resident Evil 5 very early on (2009). Some people who tried this however said that they found the DS controller uncomfortable to hold (particularly when standing), and that's where the navcon came into being.

I can see the navcon/dualshock + Move combo become more popular than originally envisioned, particularly because it is so easy and effective to use them to replace controls for a game that uses two analog sticks as well as games that use keyboard + mouse. When they designed the Move controller, they were probably more focussed on creating new experiences, and for that two identical Move controllers, imho, make more sense - they are basically simulating two arms, wrists and the ability to grab stuff with your hands, and that should be able to simulate a lot of 'motions'.

I think that made a lot of sense - at least in theory, it shouldn't be much harder to use a second Move instead of an analog stick for most games. That a navcon/dualshock + Move combo just turns out to be easier to design for when you want something that works with both Move and DualShock is something they probably didn't anticipate well enough. It will be interesting to see whether or not this will 'stick' or whether we'll get dual Move support more and more in games as we learn to use them better. Time will tell, though I suspect that navcon/dualshock (or in my case sixaxis) + Move will stick around quite a bit longer than I personally imagined I'd like: I'm still hoping that the 6+6 axis possibilities of two Moves can do a lot more cool stuff than the 2 + 6 axis for the navcon/dualshock + Move combo.

When you do chose to go with the dualshock/navcon + Move combo and you expect a large part of the crowd to be happy with a dualshock or sixaxis, then it makes a lot of sense not to put more tech into the navcon, in order not to have the one make the other an invalid option (either the extra tech pointless because you want to preserve compatibility with the dualshock, or make the dualshock an invalid option because it doesn't have the extra tech), and leave games that actually want Move functionality on both controllers to use two Move controllers.

 

[obonicus]

Well then, that's a keyboard and mouse... and Sony have had that on the PS3 since day once. Yet, and forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't believe Sony has released a single game that supports it.

Even if we were to concede keyboard and mouse as the ultimate controller, we're not doing a list of the best controllers. You're comparing Kinect to Move. How did keyboard and mouse even come into it?

You may actually be right about the DDR mat. For that particular experience, it is by far the best controller. I recall that you could play Guitar Hero 2 on the gamepad, but I don't think anyone would make the charge that this was the ideal way to play it.

No one's crazy enough to argue that a purpose-built controller won't do better at the game it's designed for. What you're doing, though, is arguing on the basis of purity of design, as if that were the ultimate quality in a controller.

Comparing controllers with different intents is mostly nonsensical to begin with, it's apples and oranges, but if you must do it, you have to compare them on the few common things they have, the most important being the quality of the game experience.

 

[goonergaz]

Dr. Marks has explained that having an analogue stick on a wand was hard to use for gamers, handling two different movements with one hand proved to be very disorienting.

Having most games using just one move controller was also a cost decision as explained by Yoshida, to keep the entry cost down.

Yes, it keeps the cost down, but if the Nav/Sub also acted like another Move I'd be more inclined to buy it (personally) - as it stand you have £25 for what is nothing but a more comfortable DS3 vs (my idea of) £35 for a more comfortable DS3 that also can be used as a 2nd Move controller.

The cheapest I've seen the Nav is £18, it's tempting...it might be nice to try one out.

 

[Arwin]

I'll also admit up front that the original post was designed to somewhat play devil's advocate. There are a fair number of posters here at Beyond3d, more than I encounter elsewhere (other than specific fansites of course), that work hard promoting their preferred Sony brand and hence my post was specifically designed to offer a counter viewpoint.

I'm going to only say this once: I think it sucks and should be a bannable offense to dismiss arguments by claiming brand-loyalty in those that come up with them. If brand-loyalty is the only force behind an argument it should be easy enough to refute.

Seriously? Is that how you intend to start your rebuttal, by quoting a Sony engineer? A tech guy? How about I respond by bringing into the conversation a man with over 40 years in the entertainment industry, a man who has been at the cutting edge of technology for much of that time, who has been at the very forefront of the "shared family experience", and man who said of Natal that it can remove "the barrier of the controller" and allow gaming to "become as approachable as any other form of entertainment."

Yes, I do. Because Marks is the guy who came up with the whole concept of removing the barrier of the controller in the first place, and more importantly, the tech behind it. He spent a lot of time running into its barriers and then trying to deal with them, and it basically took Nintendo's success with the Wii to convince him that the solution to some of the fundamental problems was to not give up the controller at all. Spielberg is basically Marks 10 years ago, in that respect. Excited about the possibilities but as yet undaunted by having to deal with its limitations. Marks says repeatedly that he is still a big fan of Kinect-type tech, but has simply stopped believing that you can get rid of buttons and feedback. This is a conclusion that a lot of impressions of people who've used both Move and Kinect seem to echo (the gamesradar one just being a recent example of a sentiment that's growing ever louder since E3).

Does my Stephen Spielberg beat your Richard Marks? Well, at least he doesn't work for the company he's peddling goods for.

So, again, I argue that looking at the reasons that a person gives is more useful than dismissing them because he works for (or against) a company.

Strangely, I'd have though that something heavier and with a larger base would be more stable than something that is so light that even the barest movement of the USB cable along its length could cause it to come tumbling.

The upshort of it is that it needs very little space to stand on and being so light the cable is almost enough to keep it in its place. When it does fall, it is too light to damage either itself or whatever it falls on and it takes almost no additional effort to keep it in place - double sided type would be more than enough. Yes, mine falls all the time too right now, but never while I'm playing, and it never really matters (usually when I'm messing around with cables).

Kinect is much bigger and heavier and the impact both on itself and on what it falls on will be much bigger. Also unless you buy a new 360, you'll have two cables coming from Kinect, one power and one USB.

There will be a variety of clips and clamps available for both solutions (in fact, I believe some have been posted later in the thread) for users in a similar situation to you.

But for Kinect, it will be pretty much an absolute requirement in my case. Whereas the PS Eye is fine as it is right now. Incidentally, my son is 2y and 3 months, so I can relate.

OT: I bought the wireless Singstar mics on a whim some months back.... and they come with a fecking dongle. How shite is that?

It's a shame, but they did it because they could then be used with the PS2 as well (they are compatible with the PS2, which has always had USB ports as well). Much more damning is that these never got released in the US for some stupid reason.

Well, one controller plus camera. And then some (sorry, using a DS3 in your left hand to control movement is not a viable solution... have you tried holding it single-handed for a significant period of time?) will need the navcon, which are those titles that are generally aimed at the hardcore.

Yeah, I played the first 50% of Motorstorm 2 with one hand, and all of Flower. Though I admit that the Sixaxis is a little more comfortable for these applications. But based on that, I don't expect to be needing the navcon.

Have you actually tried it?

You are, of course, correct in stating that it's going to be more accurate for users with a pointing device in shooters, but that does mean a 2-tier experience (especially in MP). Will games such as Socom have 2 seperate lobbies, one for those with Move and one with the DS3? Or will those games (as they state with Socom) spend time "balancing" to ensure that Move players have no advantage? If so, balancing will either mean reducing the accuracy of Move or making it easier (more lienient auto-targeting?) to get kills with the DS3. Neither is ideal, imho.

Oh, and Move will highlight (just as with Kinect) lag inherent in both the control mechanisims and also the displays, and nowhere will this be more apparent than in "twitch" games like shooters.

Fine but that's not a knock against it. That's the same for DualShock 3 and Keyboard + Mouse controls

As for the coloured balls being able to provide feedback, I too have seen this mentioned by a couple of developes. However, none so far have implemented it, and it seems the reason for that seems to be that the colour the ball takes is specific to ensure that it doesn't clash with any other colour in the area. We've already seen how quickly the Move loses signal when the colour of a floor changed to that similar of the Move at the time. So I can't see developers including, for example, muzzle flash in a game and having to state on the box, "Can't be played in an orange or yellow room. Player must wear colours other than orange and yellow".

We've seen a LOT of games that use the coloured balls to provide feedback. Shifty points out a few, but actually just about all games use it - just pay attention. Clothing doesn't matter either - it's typically lights of a certain color that can cause problems. The only example that we've seen so far of issues were caused by a continuously color shifting led light in the background. I suspect that having to change color will be rare enough to allow developers to assume they use whatever color they like with the Move most of the time.

That Dr Marks is still showing tech demo's, months and months after Move properly launched at the GDC, and when there have been plenty of games to actually play with since E3, tells me that Sony still don't quite know what to do with it and how to market it. Do Sony really see it as a gimmicky add-on? Or is there intent somewhere deep within Sony to actually do something with Move?

Marks has no other job than doing R&D, and he's created these demoes to show them to publishers. That we get to see them also is, I think, great for the hardcore. Whether or not it is effective for the rest of the audience I don't know, but then I don't expect a lot of non-hardcore to get to see them anyway. When they do though, some of these demoes are still good showcases if its precision and flexibility, so it might work. The thing is, we're also being shown plenty of games, but showing these isn't Anton Mikhailov or Richard Marks' job description - they're researchers selling tech and supporting software.

Well then, that's a keyboard and mouse... and Sony have had that on the PS3 since day once. Yet, and forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't believe Sony has released a single game that supports it.

Probably not - to be precise, XMB, Unreal Tournament 3, and LBP2 support it, but overall mouse and keyboard are considered not suitable for console gaming, partly due to logistics, partly due to not being suitable for a number of game types.

just to be "not quite as good" as what is already available for the PS3 and it just comes across (to me) as unfocused and overly complex.

I'll just restate that I disagree and leave it at that. I think I'll just wait and win this argument as soon as you've played some Move games first hand. Proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is 5 weeks away.

 

[Rotmm]

....the most important being the quality of the game experience.

And of course, we don't really know that yet.

But generally speaking, if Move (in any one of its variations) ends up not quite as good as the Wiimote with party-type games because, for example, the need to capture the coloured ball by the PSEye means it keeps losing signal because of limited fov, whereas the Wii sensor bar allow more latitude, or that Move isn't as easy and immersive as Kinect for casuals and those who rarely play games, or that the DS3 works out a better option for the hardcore gamers because pointing a stick with a glowing ball at the screen for 2 hours is far too uncomfortable.... does that make it a better controller because it can do all of those things, even if it doesn't do them as well as something else already available?

I honestly don't know the answer to that one.

Just because a control method can be shoehorned into existing game-types, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a better controller. Is the DS3 better than the DS2 because of 6axis? Or has it generally been the case that 6axis controls shoehorned into games have usually felt unnecessary and maybe even become a negative in the overall quality of the game experience?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

And of course, we don't really know that yet.

But generally speaking, if Move (in any one of its variations) ends up not quite as good as the Wiimote with party-type games because, for example, the need to capture the coloured ball by the PSEye means it keeps losing signal because of limited fov, whereas the Wii sensor bar allow more latitude, or that Move isn't as easy and immersive as Kinect for casuals and those who rarely play games, or that the DS3 works out a better option for the hardcore gamers because pointing a stick with a glowing ball at the screen for 2 hours is far too uncomfortable.... does that make it a better controller because it can do all of those things, even if it doesn't do them as well as something else already available?

I honestly don't know the answer to that one.

You would have an argument if the feedback wasn't all so positive, and your selection of somewhat abstract examples don't reflect the current state of play. Wii won't have an advantage in any but maybe 1% of games, the technology clearly shows that. Move vs. Kinect for casuals is one for the games to determine, but there's nothing obtrusive or complex about the Move controller that is preventing people playing Start the Party and similar. And even if pointing a wand at the screen is more tiresome for 2 hours than using a thumbstick, if the aiming and overall experience is better, it's a valid trade-off.

Just because a control method can be shoehorned into existing game-types, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a better controller. Is the DS3 better than the DS2 because of 6axis? Or has it generally been the case that 6axis controls shoehorned into games have usually felt unnecessary and maybe even become a negative in the overall quality of the game experience?

Where it's shoehorned, it's useless. But in the rare situations where a game has been designed around motion input, it's been great. Move is a vastly more flexible and natural interface than sixaxis, and it is seeing lots more well-considered support than sixaxis ever did.

This argument of yours, "what if it's not applied very well," can just as readily be applied to Wii or Kinect or any other controller.

 

[Crossbar]

I would like to restate my position about the subcontroller. It has one clear advantage compared to the DS3, where the DS3 simply does not work and that is for a left handed person that wants to hold the Move wand in his left hand.

Right now the sub-controller is £17.99 at amazon.co.uk. Damn that is really tempting.

 

[Rotmm]

Dr. Marks has explained that having an analogue stick on a wand was hard to use for gamers, handling two different movements with one hand proved to be very disorienting..

That makes a lot of sense, I never thought of that.

However, there is a counter argument. At present, those games that use 2 wands don't use an analogue stick for movement (as there isn't one ). So surely, adding either a bulb to the navcon, or a stick to a 2nd Move wouldn't change those experiences at all, and at the same time allow for the removal of a peripheral from the overall Move package.

 

[Crossbar]

That makes a lot of sense, I never thought of that.

However, there is a counter argument. At present, those games that use 2 wands don't use an analogue stick for movement (as there isn't one ). So surely, adding either a bulb to the navcon, or a stick to a 2nd Move wouldn't change those experiences at all, and at the same time allow for the removal of a peripheral from the overall Move package.

Yeah, but then you would end up with a design cluttered with buttons: 2 trigger buttons, d-pad, x-o-...buttons, analogue stick and an action button. Not really a useful tactic if you are going for the casual market.

The sub-controller is a nice-to-have for some core games, but not a necessity, except maybe for left-handed people.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I dislike the notion of a DS3 in the left hand. the idea of resting it on your leg is forcing an ergonomic that isn't a comfortable fit for me - I play with controller raised. There'd be virtually no clutter taking the very same move we have now and putting a PSP nub on it, and if Sony designed this properly, they could have a nub where the current M button is and have it pressable too, involving no more clutter than the current design.

 

[goonergaz]

I dislike the notion of a DS3 in the left hand. the idea of resting it on your leg is forcing an ergonomic that isn't a comfortable fit for me - I play with controller raised. There'd be virtually no clutter taking the very same move we have now and putting a PSP nub on it, and if Sony designed this properly, they could have a nub where the current M button is and have it pressable too, involving no more clutter than the current design.

IMHO the problem is that you still need the left shoulder buttons, I don't think you can escape the need for 2 controllers (one being left and one right - having to program buttons would be a pain and be counter intuitive) however to simply add a ball to the Nav would mean I only need buy 2 Moves rather than 2 Moves + a Nav if I want the extra comfort. I can see sales being very low for the Nav - £18 isn't too bad, but it's still more than I would have wanted...having said that - at £30 Move is cheaper than I expected.

I'm still waiting for some 3rd party DS3 add-ons to make single-handed play (for 9/10 gamers) more comfortable..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The shoulder buttons are covered by the trigger, as it were. You don't often need all four shoulder buttons, and a game that's targeting these inputs would have other options. The ball also isn't good enough on its own. You need the MEMS to provide trajectory stuff. thus if you want the functionality of two Moves, you need two Moves. If you also want thumb input, you need thumb input to be added to the meat of a Move controller. The Navcon is pretty much a slightly shrunk Move without ball and with a thumbstick where the M button is. Upscale it a smidge, add the ball, replace the M button with a nub, and you have a Navcon/Move hybrid that provides the much valued analog input, and the dual-Move input. Sure it won't emulate directly the DS inputs, but a game only needs a few tweaks to adapt. Whereas wanting thumb input for a dual-Move game isn't possible, whereas using thumb input via Navcon or DS means not having dual-Move.

A single, all-in-one Move would also be easy communication and distribution, with icons on a game box denoting support for just one or two Moves, no regard for Navcon/DS support. How exactly is optional Navcon/sixaxis-in-your-left-hand being explained to the mass population?

 

[upnorthsox]

The 4 buttons on a 2nd wand can be used just like a d-pad for navigation and yet still have the buttons on the first wand available and unencumbered by a nub in the way that would inevitably get bumped (even slightly) when trying to press a button/combo. This also allows for the 2 wands to be used in MP without distinction and also creates clarity for the consumer as to what controller to buy.

This IMHO is why Sony went the route they did and will inevitably be the route most gamers will go in their controller purchases.

 

[Rotmm]

Wii won't have an advantage in any but maybe 1% of games, the technology clearly shows that.

The reason that I tend to use abstracts is that I don't feel any of us are in a position to make definite statements, such as the one above. Considering the whole Wii architecture and GUI, from Mii's to the big, colourful menu to the ease to get into and play games, has been designed around the Wiimote, to make such a statement about 99% of PS3 Move games having an advantage is, if you'll excuse my bluntness, foolish.

Where it's shoehorned, it's useless. But in the rare situations where a game has been designed around motion input,

Flower is the only game I've played where I felt it worked, Lair is a game designed around sixaxis and it was terrible. Then when it's shoehorned in, in games like U2 and KZ2, it really didn't add anything except and annoyance. I agree that Move is more flexible, but can we say for certain that it's going to offer a better experience than the one that it's replacing?

I think you also mentioned in another post about Move getting positive feedback, and yes, it has. So has Kinect and it has so far been experienced by more people it seems. And so did the Wii. In fact, I seem to recall gaming sites going mad for the idea of shooters being "best on the Wii" when they first got their hands on it all those years ago, and it hasn't really taken off in that department.

This argument of yours, "what if it's not applied very well," can just as readily be applied to Wii or Kinect or any other controller.[/QUOTE]

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The reason that I tend to use abstracts is that I don't feel any of us are in a position to make definite statements, such as the one above. Considering the whole Wii architecture and GUI, from Mii's to the big, colourful menu to the ease to get into and play games, has been designed around the Wiimote, to make such a statement about 99% of PS3 Move games having an advantage is, if you'll excuse my bluntness, foolish.

Foolish? You said...

...Move (in any one of its variations) ends up not quite as good as the Wiimote with party-type games because, for example, the need to capture the coloured ball by the PSEye means it keeps losing signal because of limited fov, whereas the Wii sensor bar allow more latitude...

Your argument was purely technical, and in terms of technology the only advantage Wii has over Move is that irrespective of where a player is within a room, outside the FOV of a camera set up under the TV, if the Wiimote is facing the sensorbar it'll have a calibration point. Scrub that, Move's magnetometer serves the same purpose, so I don't think Wii has any real advantage that'd be applicable to a real game.

As for the experience, that can be said of any and every paltform. If the software is crap, the hardware is irrelevant, and we won't know if it's crap or not until the games are out. But in terms of potential, we can certainly evaluate the number and range of input methods these systems offer in hardware.

Flower is the only game I've played where I felt it worked, Lair is a game designed around sixaxis and it was terrible.

Warhawk was excellent. Regards Lair, you can't take one bad exmple to prove a fault of the entire system. By that argument, the existence of any poorly controlling game shows dual-thumbsticks to be useless...

I think you also mentioned in another post about Move getting positive feedback, and yes, it has. So has Kinect and it has so far been experienced by more people it seems. And so did the Wii. In fact, I seem to recall gaming sites going mad for the idea of shooters being "best on the Wii" when they first got their hands on it all those years ago, and it hasn't really taken off in that department.

I don't even understand this point. Who here has said those systems haven't had great feedback? You've raised issue suggesting the software may not be able to make the most of Move. In contrast to that, there is hands-on experience from people saying it seems to be being supported effectively.

I'm not even sure what the argument is now! Yes, Move like any other system could be utter pants. That possibility doesn't mean it cannot be any good. Some systems definitely won't be a good, ever, like a 'vat of gel electrolyte' controller. That would be rubbish. Move on the other hand, whether it's used effectively or not, offers in hardware some excellent options, and certainly more flexible inputs than either Kinect or Wii. And to be optimistic, reports of Move are saying it's working, just as Wii does and Kinect is.

 

[goonergaz]

reports of Move are saying it's working, just as Wii does and Kinect is.

I would argue that Wii works OK most of the time, I've not tried it with motion+ (as I refuse to pay £60-80 to fix my 'broken' wiimotes). Reason being I find it infuriating that the wiimote doesn't do what I tell it to - well certainly not accurately enough for my liking - end result - I don't play on Wii because I don't want to be frustrated...it's why I have massive doubts WRT Kinect.

 

[tha_con]

Just food for thought: It is extremely likely that Sony has already tried set ups with analog sticks on the main Move controller. I know people may think it's a good idea, or that it's "simple enough" but I'm sure they've done focus testing with things like that.

 

[Rotmm]

I'm going to only say this once: I think it sucks and should be a bannable offense to dismiss arguments by claiming brand-loyalty in those that come up with them. If brand-loyalty is the only force behind an argument it should be easy enough to refute.

Firstly, I haven't dismissed any of your arguments (except, to a certain extent, the one about Marks, because using a company employee to back-up an argument feels somewhat facile to me) but rather offered counter-arguments. As for the last point, as I'm sure you are aware it is never easy to refute the opinions of those who hold a strong brand loyalty.

Yes, I do. Because Marks is the guy who came up with the whole concept of removing the barrier of the controller in the first place, and more importantly, the tech behind it. He spent a lot of time running into its barriers and then trying to deal with them, and it basically took Nintendo's success with the Wii to convince him that the solution to some of the fundamental problems was to not give up the controller at all. Spielberg is basically Marks 10 years ago, in that respect. Excited about the possibilities but as yet undaunted by having to deal with its limitations. Marks says repeatedly that he is still a big fan of Kinect-type tech, but has simply stopped believing that you can get rid of buttons and feedback. This is a conclusion that a lot of impressions of people who've used both Move and Kinect seem to echo (the gamesradar one just being a recent example of a sentiment that's growing ever louder since E3).

Ok, so again let me offer a counter argument. Back in 2008 there was rumoured a "better mousetrap" in the works at Microsoft, a Wiimote like device that had, to that point, been in development for a year or so. It was even rumoured to have coloured lights on the end so that it could interact with the Xbox camera.

Raghu Murthi, GM of Natural User Interface at MS states that the reason they have chosen the route they have is because it's a revolutionary move forward, bringing gesture, voice and video together in a way never done before in the consumer space and that any form of physical controller, be it a mouse and keyboard or a Wiimote, means that only one point (or two, if using two controllers) is being brought into the experience. They are looking at an interface where immersion is the focus.

So MS have gone from looking at a Wiimote rip-off to a camera based solution, whereas Sony have gone from a camera based solution to a wiimote rip-off.

I wonder if the reason for this could be as simple as Sony being a hardware company, they have looked for a hardware solution to match (and be slightly better) than the Wii control method, where Microsoft is a software company and have gone for a new way of matching (and be slightly better?) the ease of entry into the Wii-type experience?

So, again, I argue that looking at the reasons that a person gives is more useful than dismissing them because he works for (or against) a company.

Ok, I'll agree with you. And to that end, I'll offer my opinion that that Mr Murthi has eloquently stated why MS have chosen the revolutionary route they have, and not to follow the previous path that would have taken them to where Sony is today (except with a 2008/9 release date).

Kinect is much bigger and heavier and the impact both on itself and on what it falls on will be much bigger. Also unless you buy a new 360, you'll have two cables coming from Kinect, one power and one USB.

Indeed. As you say, neither base it ideal for resting on top of the TV, but Kinect will surely cause more damage when it falls. And, being MS hardware, is less likely to actually survive said fall But clips and other solutions are and will be available to buy if needed.

As for the 2 cable thing coming from the Kinect, is that still true? I remember there was some talk of it because a seperate power supply was seen on a Natal dev unit. But as far as I'm aware, there has been no confirmation of of this being present with final Kinect units, and indeed there doesn't seem to be anywhere to plug a PSU in going by the latest Kinect images (seen from all sides).

It's a shame, but they did it because they could then be used with the PS2

When I bought mine and found the dongle, I googled why and it seems the main reason was that they couldn't get 2 bluetooth mics to play nice together.

Have you actually tried it?

No, but I have sat there just holding the DS3 for 5 minutes and playing around with the analogue stick and found it very uncomfortable. Ironically, is the stick was in the same position it is on the 360 controller, I think it would work better and offer more stability in the hand.

We've seen a LOT of games that use the coloured balls to provide feedback.

You're right. As soon as I saw Shfty's post I remembered seeing it in Sorcery.

Marks has no other job than doing R&D, and he's created these demoes to show them to publishers. That we get to see them also is, I think, great for the hardcore.

Great or not, it says to me that either Sony are still not convinced they have a compelling offering in software or that they still aren't sure of what the market for Move is.

I'll just restate that I disagree and leave it at that. I think I'll just wait and win this argument as soon as you've played some Move games first hand. Proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is 5 weeks away.

Firstly, I don't think it's about "me" playing Move games, but whether or not I can get my wife to buy into it. Sadly, I'm unlikely to be an earlier adopter of either Move or Kinect, the latter due to price and the former due to cables, clutter and coloured balls. It's just too low-tech and last-gen to really grab me at present.

 

[tha_con]

It's just too low-tech and last-gen to really grab me at present.

What an absolutely off base and absurd thing to say. The fact that this and "colored balls" seem to be the main detractors from you getting Move is a bit telling. Honestly, do you think colored balls will make you look any more silly than jumping with giant headed avatars on screen? Or dancing to terrible music with extremely simple canned dance moves? Really?