The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[Arwin]

That's a good summary.

Thinking about the Wii rip-offs, maybe that's an area that PSN/XBLA could be exploited?
Low budget, low cost, adequate graphics, great gameplay - isn't that a summary of what those markets try to achieve?

Absolutely, although it shouldn't be limited to it - in fact I predict the renewed focus on also more 'casual' audiences will cause more PSN and probably also XBLA games to be released on disc as well.

But definitely, there are a bunch of existing PSN games that are being patched with Move support that fit the category 'Wii rip-off', even if that's sometimes a bit unfair to the title's quality. I own Hustle Kings and Velocity Bowling for instance, and both of these are getting a Move patch. And both of these titles would definitely have existed without the Move.

Anyway, the Move controller isn't so much traditional as that it suits the way we interface with a lot of things in our world - we grab something with our hands and move it, we pick up tools with our hands and use them, etc. The Move allows these things to be replicated in 3D space very exactly (both moving and rotating objects with high precision). Add to that a price pointer feature that matches the very often used Mouse and the augmented reality ('Magic Mirror') features make it a very powerful tool. Yes, it is in many ways 'just' an evolution of what Nintendo did with the Wii, but so was the dualshock controller that so many now swear by. People once thought of the d-pad very highly too, and certainly today it still has its uses for some games, but that's partly because those games were designed to work with the d-pad . Think about a game like pac-man, where your only control options are going up-down-left-right.

Anyway, Sony seems to have designed the Move controller to be capable of replacing existing controllers, and from the looks of it it can probably manage to do so for at least a large number of games. Certainly it opens up the platform for receiving Wii style games as well as mouse controlled games and applications on PC.

I'm going to make a wild prediction here: Kinect will eventually be paired with some kind of peripheral to work with a wider range of games (may be the traditional controller initially, but will move something more suited to individual hands very soon), and Move will evolve its camera tech to allow even more Kinect like features than it already does. Nintendo will come with its own version of full-body sensing (camera based remains likely) and all three will evolve precision hand-interfacing one way or the other.

 

[patsu]

Introducing Move to existing players who are deeply entrenched in DS3 is not a safe move. It means that Sony/Nintendo needs to make sure Move offers genuine advantages. Otherwise it's a solution looking for a problem.

Introducing Move with a brand new gameplay may be "easier" if the game concept is refreshing and fun (See WiiSports Resort). But such ideas are not common to come by.

Basically, both approaches are not easy. ^_^

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There's certainly a cost advantage to introducing new hardware patched into old games. The cost of Kinect is looking to be $150+game in whatever bundle. That's $200 in the above exmple, with a $30 gift card which you don't generally get in the UK, nor the rest of Europe AFAIK. Basically Kinect is cost of hardware plus cost of game, which may be €200 all told, or thereabouts, which is the minimum entry-level price to play Kinect games. Move on the other hand could work out at more like €50 entry level if you just buy the Move controller or camera bundle, and play existing games like LBP that get a patch.

If MS or whoever's limiting Kinect's broad integration were welcoming of introducing Kinect to all games, it'd mean a bit less expense as buyers could gain some Kinect benefit without having to buy a new game or two. And of course you want massive adoption to drive userbase and make future game development economically viable. It's better to have 10 million casuals buying into Kinect and 10 million existing core gamers wanting to upgrade their core experience, versus just 10 million casuals and no core gamers.

 

[patsu]

The cost is tied to hardware BOM cost, R&D effort and marketing $$$. It is also relative to your financial goal. If the idea is tagged onto existing core games (i.e., most likely targeting similar user base), then it may be cheaper due to the efficiency in reaching these same audience over the decade. But the result is not guaranteed since they may not be able to convert people to use Move. It's not necessarily a safe bet to try to replace existing entrenched behavior.

If the idea is directed at the masses, then they will naturally need a large sum of money to reach out and convince them. It'd be slightly easier to get attention if the idea is unique and compelling. It's more $$$ intensive, hence present a different risk.

 

[Rurouni]

What do you guys think about the controller that Sony and MS (and probably Nintendo) will put on their next gen console (and their next bundle)? Can MS afford to bundle Kinect with every console and still sell the system at a reasonable price? Can Sony afford to put DS + Move + PS Eye or they'll go the Nintendo route and sold the DS separately?
All of this tech will undoubtedly be cheaper in the future, but since the hardware spec would probably be higher then the price probably wouldn't budge that much. For example, I doubt that next gen Kinect can be sold as cheap as regular or even a stereo cam, thus it will affect the console price greatly. Are MS going to target similar launch price (Xbox360 launch price)? If so, wouldn't that affect the console horsepower or they are going to subsidize it more?

As for Move, I think Sony really miss the chance to make a really versatile default controller. As it is right now, it is just an add on and can't replace your the default controller. If they really stuff all the right side of DS into Move (put R1 and probably add joystick ability to the move button, kinda like PSP nub but with pressure sensitive R3 button.. assuming that the move button is pressure sensitive) then it would be perfect. They can just make the Move + Navcon to be the default controller (even for current PS3 console) and ditch the DS. As it is right now they can't sell PS3 with Move + Navcon as the default controller thus increasing the price (or cutting their margin) of the Move bundle.

What do you guys think?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Can Sony afford to put DS + Move + PS Eye or they'll go the Nintendo route and sold the DS separately?...
As for Move, I think Sony really miss the chance to make a really versatile default controller. As it is right now, it is just an add on and can't replace your the default controller. If they really stuff all the right side of DS into Move (put R1 and probably add joystick ability to the move button, kinda like PSP nub but with pressure sensitive R3 button.. assuming that the move button is pressure sensitive) then it would be perfect.

There's your answer. Separate the two halves of DS into two separate controllers with an analogue sticks on each and it'll serve every job. There's no physical or anatomical need to have the two sides connected in the middle.

 

[Danalys]

I guess they think right stick is normally camera movement which the Move can do by moving. There are very few examples of it being used otherwise. Rolling dodges, directional attack and other things don't really require centring. Think of the PC keyboard and Mouse and it's usage for most kinds of games, or the possibility of gesture replacing stick flips.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

There's your answer. Separate the two halves of DS into two separate controllers with an analogue sticks on each and it'll serve every job. There's no physical or anatomical need to have the two sides connected in the middle.

Yes an analog stick on both controllers would be ideal.

It would allow for movement (left analog), view control (right analog), and simultaneously intuitive cursor control (motion control).

If anyone here ever played the original System Shock, that would have made a perfect controller. For those that didn't, the original System shock required keyboard keys controlling movement + view change while the mouse controlled your aiming cursor that could roam anywhere on screen. Even with a keyboard that was pretty difficult to manage.

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

Yes an analog stick on both controllers would be ideal.

It would allow for movement (left analog), view control (right analog), and simultaneously intuitive cursor control (motion control).

I don't think that would be ideal. The only way it would be ideal is by either using the one or the other, but not both at the same time. To quote Richard Marks:

other schemes involve you use the Move for one literal controller and the other Move is used for kind of like an analog stick actually you can do that, You can do, there's lots of research into the academic community, there's things called 'clutching' which is when you push a button, suddenly now that is your motions instead so yeah it's literally your arm until you push a button and now it becomes your move-around-the-world kind of thing. So there is only so many things that people can do with one. Actually if you'd ever try to do it it is quite tricky if you try to put an analog stick on here and to be moving it and move the analog stick it is very hard to do.

People seem to have a limit kind of about two sets of spatial input they can do at a time so you can already do that with two of these [Move controllers]

If anyone here ever played the original System Shock, that would have made a perfect controller. For those that didn't, the original System shock required keyboard keys controlling movement + view change while the mouse controlled your aiming cursor that could roam anywhere on screen. Even with a keyboard that was pretty difficult to manage.

One Move controller has basically 6 analog inputs through movement (x, y, z, and turning on x, y and z), and another two through buttons, plus 4 regular buttons (which normally on PS3 are also analog by the way, but it's not nearly as useful for that kind of application than the other 8).

If you have two Move controllers, you can basically fly a helicopter realistically. It will be interesting to see how far you can go with two Move controllers - I'm more interested in that combination right now than analog stick (on navi or dualshock) + Move controller and see how far you can take that, although I won't rule out the possibility that the former is more comfortable for things like fps games. It will certainly be easier for creating games that work with just the dualshock or the Move setup to configure it that way.

But for me the idea of having some sort of puppeteering style controls for your avatar using one Move controller, and control aiming/arm movement with the other is very attractive to me. You may be able to do precise jumping (following a curve that you make in 3D space with the Move controller), leaning or running forward/backward, crouching, turning and what not.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I'm not sure I agree with him. As a pilot for example you're already dealing with far more control options that all have to be operated simultaneously. Take a look at the controls required for a dedicated flight sim for example. Once you get into true combat flight sims and amount of systems to control and manage grow even more. We're talking about both feet and both hands. With each hand managing multiple systems of input and control.

Yes, it's not exactly a casual gaming experience. But then just about anything simulating realistic controls isn't going to be all that casual (example, MS's studies showing people being intimidated by core console controls). There's still a bit of a disconnect with FPS and the whole cursor in the middle of the screen for example. I still think for something like a shooter to take the next step is going to require independant control of movement, view change, and aim.

Thinking of System Shock or Ultima Underworld I and II makes me excited to think we might be on the verge of a control system that would work well for those.

2 analog sticks and 1 motion control or 2 motion controls and 1 analog stick would probably work quite well. Either of those will be far easier and more intuitive than learning the controls required to fly a plane.

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

But you will still only ever be using two hands at the same time doing two different things at the same time, even if you're moving your hands between different buttons, levers and so on.

 

[AzBat]

Microsoft is setting up a huge Kinect kiosk at Mall of America(US largest mall outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota)

http://kotaku.com/5586618/large-kinect-kiosk-sets-up-shop-in-mall

Looks like Microsoft is pretty serious about getting regular folks excited about Kinect. Wonder if other malls will get a similar treatment?

Tommy McClain

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I'm wondering if MS isn't doing their marketing push just a little too early. Almost 4 months til launch right? I'd have thought 2-3 months would be better. Time to build hype without too much time for the hype to start dying down.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

But you will still only ever be using two hands at the same time doing two different things at the same time, even if you're moving your hands between different buttons, levers and so on.

And yet games like Mechwarriors 4 on PC had you not only aiming with joystick, but simultaneously using twist to rotate torso, coolie hat to adjust views, and 4-5 buttons to operate weapons with one hand while the other hand was either operating various systems on the keyboard or using a throttle control was operating that in addition to other buttons for other systems.

I just don't see the limitation. It's obviously a learned response rather than an instinctive response. Just like any complex control systems (helicopter controls, flight controls, dual analog sticks for FPS games, keyboard and mouse for FPS).

All are bewildering and confusing if they are thrust upon someone who has never used them before. All require X amount of time training before any level of predictable control is achieved.

Keyboard and Mouse is easier than the controls I mentioned for Mechwarrior 4. Those are easier than Flight Controls, etc.

Using 2 analog sticks + motion controls or 2 motion controls + analog stick will be far easier than controlling a Flight Sim, Mech Sim on console (Armored Core series can get pretty difficult to understand what you are doing with the controls) or even the aforementioned Mechwarrior 4 controls.

I seriously don't see how moving a cursor with the move wand while simultaneously adjust view is more difficult than aiming (moving cursor) with a joystick, twisting torso with joystick, adjust view with coolie hat on joystick, and managing weapon systems with joystick (all with one hand and all done simultaneously). And the other hand is just moving with analog stick versus manage movement speed, and other systems with other hand. Flight controls are similarly complicated, except even more so for combat flight controls.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

Playstation Move bundles:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/07/14/what-playstation-move-setup-is-right-for-you/

Only Sports Championship bundle mentioned.

The last pricing option is wrong:

I have a PS3 and PlayStation Eye camera

* Your best option: Move Motion Controller
How much it will cost? $49.99

I still need a game unless the motion controller comes with a free PSN title. So should be $49.99 + game price.

The game bundle is better value.

 

[Rurouni]

Basically, when I see the PS3 move bundle, I see a DS3 and Move... if Move has all the right hand button of DS3, that DS3 picture could very well be replaced by Navicon.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't think that would be ideal. The only way it would be ideal is by either using the one or the other, but not both at the same time.

I agree, I wouldn't expect gamers to be using dual motion controllers simultaneously with dual analogue sticks. It's better economy and controller design to have a single controller to do all jobs though, which is where the split controller+sticks comes in. This is a far better design than packing in two different controllers, or only one type and fracturing the install base.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Playstation Move bundles:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/07/14/what-playstation-move-setup-is-right-for-you/

Only Sports Championship bundle mentioned.

Hmmm.

"Bought a PSEye on the expectations of awesome, unique game experiences following our promotional concept vids? Now you want to actually use it to play some of those games? Well yuo need to buy something else, and we'll charge you more for the privelege!"

The term 'shafted' comes to mind.

 

[Arwin]

I agree, I wouldn't expect gamers to be using dual motion controllers simultaneously with dual analogue sticks. It's better economy and controller design to have a single controller to do all jobs though, which is where the split controller+sticks comes in. This is a far better design than packing in two different controllers, or only one type and fracturing the install base.

Maybe, but it would compromise both experiences. Dualshock type controllers are far more comfortable because each hand holds the main base of the controller and stabilises it so that the thumb is free from muscle strain.

Having an analog stick added onto the Move controller means that the most logical place for it is now competing with the new pressure sensitive Action button and blocks access to the four playstation buttons surrounding it.

Sony are not idiots. Marks in the interview that I transcribed recognised that two analog sticks and two move controllers each offer a different set of experiences, and that he was interested to see how that will play out in the future.

I personally think there will always be a place for analog controllers much like the Wii has the Wii-mote as well as the 'classic controller', simply because that kind of finger-tip control is the least effort you can apply for this kind of control, versus doing the same with a move controller (which will require more work by the wrist) let alone your body. You'll see that if you look at your hand, then even experienced mouse users will only move their thumb and ring finger to move the mouse around, almost not using their wrists at all.

However, I've seen that you can use the Move in a very relaxed manner with still a lot of precision, so I guess time will tell how many experiences can be taken over.

Regarding the bundles, what are you referring to exactly? That you get the PS Eye for free if you buy a Move controller and Sports Champions, and are therefore not rewarded for having a PS Eye already? From what I'm seeing by the way, this kind of setup isn't there in Europe, where the PS Eye sold much better, so that may mitigate this a little. You can basically save 15 euro if you buy one Move controller and one copy of Sports Champions versus getting the Move + PS Eye bundle and a copy of Sports Champions.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sony are not idiots.

I was going to agree wtih this, but then I realised that all too many of their choices are idiotic!

Marks in the interview that I transcribed recognised that two analog sticks and two move controllers each offer a different set of experiences, and that he was interested to see how that will play out in the future.

Sure, but the question is how do you support that in the future with a new console platform. Is one of those experiences going to be an optional extra that's mostly unused, or will both experiences be provided out of the box? If the latter, how? With lots of different controllers, or one compromised solution that bridges the gap?

I personally think there will always be a place for analog controllers much like the Wii has the Wii-mote as well as the 'classic controller'...

In this case, the classic controller is the optional extra, ignored by most of the install base I imagine. So is PS4 going to be a move console with dual-shock as an optional extra and few games supporting it properly, or a conventional console with movement as an optional extra poorly supported?

You can basically save 15 euro if you buy one Move controller and one copy of Sports Champions versus getting the Move + PS Eye bundle and a copy of Sports Champions.

Yes, but the PSEye cost more than €15 and got next to no use. Buying a PSEye, then Move and Sports Champions, will have cost more than buying the bundle. For those who got their money's worth from EOJ or the few PSN titles, there's no complaint, but for the rest of us who didn't even get a noise-cancelling microphone as advertised, it's definitely a (usual) slap in the face for being an early adopter.

The moral of this story is never buy on promise or potential.