The Lost Xbox 1.5 Plan

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A week ago, in the series of articles at PC Watch, Hiroshige Goto had this article titled "The Rushed Xbox 360 And The Lost Xbox 1.5 Plan."

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/1227/kaigai231.htm

Basically it's a technical postmortem of the Xbox 360 launch, but he reveals some new info he got from insiders, and here's my summary.

1. The lost Xbox 1.5 plan

Microsoft had actually planned to release an updated version of Xbox, called Xbox 1.5, shortly after the original Xbox 1, and before the real next-generation Xbox. This Xbox 1.5 has the full hardware backward compatibility with Xbox 1, and has a better CPU/GPU. It can run both Xbox 1 softwares and better looking Xbox 1.5 softwares. Basically it breaks the 5-year cycle of game console and runs away from the competition by the absolute power. Goto heard of this Xbox 1.5 from various sources, and one of them was people in the CPU industry not at all related to the games industry. Goto suggests it's likely that MS was seeking a CPU supplier.

Goto also writes back then he was confused by the info that what's thought to be Xbox 1.5 would be the next-gen Xbox 2 rather than a mere upgraded version, so now he seem to have another evidence that what's called Xbox 1.5 and the actual Xbox 360 are 2 different things. But he doesn't know the reason why Xbox 1.5 was ditched and speculates because of this fluctuation Microsoft couldn't get enough design time for Xbox 360.

IBM disclosed at FPF 2005 that the Xbox 360 CPU development including silicon manufacturing only took 24 months, which is unusually short for CPU developement and almost rivals with a GPU development schedule. According to Goto it means Microsoft had a basic design database for the Xbox 360 CPU before going to IBM.

2. Too optimistic heat estimation

Goto thinks while it seems the PS3 case was designed after Cell was completed, the design of the Xbox 360 case had to be done before silicon validation. At E3, he heard from a Microsoft insider that they hesitated to make the PSU external, as seen in the back panel of the mockup unit at E3. The ugly PSU will stay for a while as the symbol of the rushed design until the chip set is shrinked and the PSU becomes internal.

3. The 2-core plan for the Xbox 360 CPU

He heard from game developers that devkits based on the actual Xbox 360 design had various problems such as units under the target clockspeed, and other problems not related to the clockspeed. Considering the transistor size and the frequency, the biggest heat source is the 3.2Ghz 3-core CPU. According to what Goto heard from a Microsoft insider, there was actually a plan about a 2-core version and they tried to lower the clockspeed too. But the Microsoft insider told him that eventually there had been a reason that it has to be both 3-core and 3.2Ghz. Goto doesn't know the exact reason, but he speculates it's to run games and other services simultaneously.

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Anyway, I've never heard of this Xbox 1.5 plan, so posted this here to ask if someone knows about this plan or how do you think about this.
 
On the heat thing, isn't the PPE the hottest part of Cell? It wouldn't suprise me that Xenon would end up being the hottest part in the 360. I assume splitting the GPU die helped with heat dissipation if only b/c now there's greater surface area in contact with the heatsink, so heat transfer should be increased. PEACE.
 
J Allard has stated they started work on Xbox 360 right after the Xbox 1 launched. I doubt there was ever an "Xbox 1.5", and who would have named it that anyway? :LOL:
 
MechanizedDeath said:
On the heat thing, isn't the PPE the hottest part of Cell? It wouldn't suprise me that Xenon would end up being the hottest part in the 360. I assume splitting the GPU die helped with heat dissipation if only b/c now there's greater surface area in contact with the heatsink, so heat transfer should be increased. PEACE.

From what I've read, the Xbox360 CPU is hotter than the Xenon GPU.
 
Hardknock said:
J Allard has stated they started work on Xbox 360 right after the Xbox 1 launched. I doubt there was ever an "Xbox 1.5", and who would have named it that anyway? :LOL:

J Allard says a lot of things.
 
Hardknock said:
J Allard has stated they started work on Xbox 360 right after the Xbox 1 launched. I doubt there was ever an "Xbox 1.5", and who would have named it that anyway? :LOL:
Well if J said it... ;)

But maybe this was a more broad version of their Xbox tech licensing plan? They would design a souped-up Xbox and allow other companies to integrate it into their products whilst designing Xbox2 (360).
 
Anyone remember the rumour mini Xbox ? That was supposedly redesign Xbox made smaller like PS1 and recently the slim PS2 ?
 
There never was a planned intermediate Xbox (or Xbox 1.5, etc).

As early as 2002, the only design was triple-core PowerPC and a very close match for the actual shipping Xbox 360 hardware in 2005.

The external PSU was also a design decision planned long ago. Not something thrown in after E3. Not sure why the demo units at E3 mean anything, considering they were purely plastic shell case mockups with G5-based alpha kits driving the displays. A large PSU doesn't entirely qualify for great powerpoint slide material, either ;)

There were also never any plans for a mini-Xbox. The hardware simply doesn't cost-reduce and scale down in size (not that the original Xbox's hardware was even designed for such optimization).

It's certainly fair to characterize launch game software as rushed, given the aggressive final devkit hardware schedule, but there really wasn't much thrashing about on the design side for everything else in years prior.
 
BRiT said:
From what I've read, the Xbox360 CPU is hotter than the Xenon GPU.

You can tell just by looking at the heatsinks. The part on top of the XeCPU is freakin' huge compared to the section covering the Xenos.
 
Hardknock said:
J Allard has stated they started work on Xbox 360 right after the Xbox 1 launched. I doubt there was ever an "Xbox 1.5", and who would have named it that anyway? :LOL:

That doesn't mean there wasn't talk about another version... MS knew they were never going to make money on the first box. A redesign would fix that.

The 360 project has nothing to do with that.

They're doing the same thing right now. They're working on both a 360 redesign (although probably no 360.5 ;)) and a brand new console for, say, 2009.

one said:
According to what Goto heard from a Microsoft insider, there was actually a plan about a 2-core version and they tried to lower the clockspeed too. But the Microsoft insider told him that eventually there had been a reason that it has to be both 3-core and 3.2Ghz. Goto doesn't know the exact reason, but he speculates it's to run games and other services simultaneously.

Probably. Core 0 is the only core devs can use for 100%.
 
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pipo said:
Probably. Core 0 is the only core devs can use for 100%.

The percentages of CPU time occupied by the OS that we've seen claimed are small, however. I'm not sure why that would keep them from moving away from 3 cores if it had needed to be so.
 
DudeWheresMyXbox said:
There never was a planned intermediate Xbox (or Xbox 1.5, etc). < ... >
Do you have any sources or other evidence to back up any of the (many) statements you make? Not saying you're making all of this up (though you certainly could be, god knows enough people have surfaced here and done just that), but it would be interesting nevertheless. I'm sure many would like to know more of the inside process of designing the 360, myself included.

I have to say that if the article quoted in the first post is true, MS, IBM and ATi really did a remarkable job in a short period of time, because the 360 is really a quite spectacular piece of hardware. I'm SO looking forward to see what people will be able to make with it in the future...
 
Back in 2002 (before Xenon was known of on the internet ) there was supposedly something called the Microsoft 'Freon'. The Freon was reported to an Xbox with more multimedia capabilities. Some reports said Freon was just an Xbox1 with extra multi media functions - other reports said Freon was thought to be the next-generation Xbox, but it turns out it was only an Xbox or somewhat upgraded Xbox with a bunch of extra functionality including UltimateTV (WebTV).... and DVR capabilities. There was also the Microsoft 'Homestation' which was either another name for Freon or something different. Freon (and Homestation) were both soon forotten about when the name Xenon came up in 2003 -- which would be the real Xbox2.

I believe that the 'lost Xbox 1.5 plan' that the OP is talking about, and the article he found, refers to the Freon
and-or Homestation, which never saw the light of day.

articles on Freon and-or Homestation

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3873,325871,00.asp
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=25752&DisplayTab=Article
http://www.gaming-age.com/cgi-bin/specials/special.pl?spec=xboxdvr&pagenum=1
http://themortuary.org/modules.php?...e=article&sid=268&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

there are no doubt many more articles - just Google Xbox Freon -or- Xbox Homestation

I am hoping that the so called "Xbox Next PC" the 3rd version of Xbox2/Xenon which could now be called Xbox 360 Deluxe, or whatever, makes it out. Xbox Next PC was supposed to be an Xbox2 + Windows Media PC + original Xbox1 all rolled into one unit, to go on sale in autumn 2006 to counter PlayStation3.

one might concider a possible Xbox 360 PC (regardless of if the consumer ever sees it)
to be the "successors" to Freon / Homestation. we never saw the Freon / Homestation, and we will also probably never see the Xbox Next PC / Xbox 360 PC.



there are a lot of gaming + mulitmedia stuff developed or partly developed that never makes it out: i.e. Sony's PlayStation 'Type C' a PS1 with 4x CD-ROM drive and more VRAM. Sega's 3D accelerated upgrade cartridge for Saturn - called Eclipse or Saturn2. Nintendo's N2000 which was based on 3DO's MX technology (basicly M2.5) reworked to use an MIPS CPU. there are many other examples.



I kinda doubt we will see the 3rd version of Xbox2 / Xbox360 that has PC capabilities. It is, or was, just a project Microsoft worked on but never saw fit to introduce, much like the Freon / Homestation. I expect Microsoft will just work to make cheaper-to-manufacture Xbox 360's that run cooler and cooler, while at the same time R&D'ing the 3rd-generation Xbox with its partners.
 
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Interesting and beliavable IMO as new XB HW would also means new contracts and the change to overcome some problems like price and size and turn things a bit prettier in this gen.


Glad to see that they choose the tricore version too, it probably would not give much of a competition to PS3 if it as only dualcore, althought it would have a big price/avaiability advantage.
 
and a 3 core IBM CPU was already known (not in the general public but at least I heard it ) back in september 2003 !
so when would have the 1.5 release? .. a year after xbox release? dont think so.

most plausible would be a media cap enhanced xbox that was scratched from the planning
 
Megadrive1988 said:
Back in 2002 (before Xenon was known of on the internet ) there was supposedly something called the Microsoft 'Freon'.
Thanks Megadrive! :idea: That seems like it. Especially the paragraph at the end of the windowsitpro article echoes what Goto wrote in the article...
But Freon, which will probably ship in late 2003 or 2004, isn't just about saving money or consolidating Microsoft's product line. The company expected to make a big splash in the video-game market, and although it's definitely a player, Microsoft is also in third place behind Sony and Nintendo. Freon will help to technologically differentiate Microsoft from the competition and, perhaps more important, reduce the traditional 5-year lifecycle of most video-game systems to a time period more in line with Microsoft's successful PC software lifecycles, which average about 2 years.
 
Guden Oden said:
Do you have any sources or other evidence to back up any of the (many) statements you make? Not saying you're making all of this up (though you certainly could be, god knows enough people have surfaced here and done just that), but it would be interesting nevertheless. I'm sure many would like to know more of the inside process of designing the 360, myself included.

I have to say that if the article quoted in the first post is true, MS, IBM and ATi really did a remarkable job in a short period of time, because the 360 is really a quite spectacular piece of hardware. I'm SO looking forward to see what people will be able to make with it in the future...
I don't post often and find misleading a good technical audience would just be a waste of everyone's time.

I'm sure B3D posters could derive many reasons for not making a follow-up on the Xbox design, a few notable ones being that x86 chip makers won't deviate from PC architecture much or license out IP (with desired modifications).

The original Xbox design's future was limited by naive contracts preventing derivative hardware designs. Xbox + DVR? Xbox embedded for hotel rooms? Neither could happen. Contrast with Sony, who succeeded making both types of derived devices.

Re. naive contracts, my impression is that few have an appreciation for how insane the original Xbox engineering effort was. Imagine hiring up hundreds of friendly console-n00b engineers to design and ship a game console, certification program, monthly development SDK, kit program, peripherals and more: From scratch to shipping in 18 months. Not bad.

Accordingly, a lot of the decisions made during those 18 months due to time limitations or naivete really weren't indicative of some ultimate future strategy. It's amusing to read journalists completely miss the boat contemplating the future of x86-derived Xboxes or whether MS has a master plan of ruining the console industry by shortening hardware lifecycles. Silly like a wrongminded graduate school digging up a student's elementary papers to determine potential ;)
 
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