The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*

[function]

To say 360 version is 'worse' (& just for a blur filter ) because sony has an agreement with valve steam, is something of technical relevant or a real matter of discussion? Come on now... I think it's more interesting to understand the real technical reason indeed follow this way.

I didn't say that.

I asked you which part of what I said, specifically, you considered conjecture. I'll ask you that again. Which part of what I said, specifically, do you consider conjecture?

Additionally, I'll point out that a "blur filter" isn't the only thing making the 360 game look worse. But that's not a point I should have to make, because what I was saying was that the 360 game looks nasty in its own right.

 

[assurdum]

I didn't say that.

I asked you which part of what I said, specifically, you considered conjecture. I'll ask you that again. Which part of what I said, specifically, do you consider conjecture?

Additionally, I'll point out that a "blur filter" isn't the only thing making the 360 game look worse. But that's not a point I should have to make, because what I was saying was that the 360 game looks nasty in its own right.

Ok, now I'm pretty curios. What has of so nasty the 360 version compared to ps3 version? Just change worse with nasty how I have said in my quote if isn't enough clear what I mean ...

 

[function]

Ok, now I'm pretty curios. What has of so nasty the 360 version compared to ps3 version? Just change worse with nasty how I have said in my quote if isn't enough clear what I mean ...

I asked you which part of what I said, specifically, you considered conjecture. Actually I asked you twice, this is the third time.

You seem determined to compare screenshots. Okay then, take a look at them side by side. What do you notice apart from the blurring and the jaggies? It's not subtle. Maybe the 360's reference level is set to standard, or maybe the gamma is messed up or the HDR is broken, but whatever, it's nasty.

 

[(((interference)))]

I was quite disappointed with the Source engines performance on 360 when the Orange Box first came out in 2007, it really felt like a straight port with not much rewriting or optimisation for consoles. Definitely nothing like their impressive effort in porting HL2 to the original Xbox.

I simply think they haven't bothered doing much optimisation for the 360 version of the engine since 2007 and the PS3 looks better as it is a more recent port (by Valve not by EA who did the original Orange Box). Plus it's harder getting an engine working decently on PS3 so they probably spent more time & effort on it and got better results, wheras with the 360 it's much easier to do a straight port from the PC (especially when your engine is quite old like Source is)

 

[AmFreak]

The blur on the X360 is clearly destructive and removes texture detail while doesn't really help with the aliasing. What possible reasons could Valve have to do so, instead of delivering a simple 720p noAA image?

Because it's not like the XGPU would apply the blur on its own unless Valve gets some Xbox coding ninjas to do some crazy programming-tsu and remove it. Someone had to put it in there intentionally, and I honestly wonder why they did that.

This question comes a little late after, especially at the beginning of the generation, dozens of ps3 games used blur or QAA instead of no AA or 2xAA. It's not as if this aproach is something new; how many people complained about L4D1/2?

 

[dragonelite]

They could have atleast use a AA post processing like the Force unleashed or Jimenez mlaa from gpu pro 2 or something like that.

Still have to buy the pc version friends are buggering me to get it for some coop.

 

[MJP]

They could have atleast use a AA post processing like the Force unleashed or Jimenez mlaa from gpu pro 2 or something like that.

Typically you lock down engine features like AA long before the game ships, so that you can keep it stable instead of introducing new bugs/issues. So it's not really reasonable to expect them to integrate techniques that were published in the last 2 months.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Shifty, how would you explain the blur that's clearly worsening the image quality? A straight 720p image with aliasing should look far better. And it isn't just an edge blur, texture quality is compromised as well.

As I said though, it's not a uniform blur. It could be DOF gone bad. I don't know. The only thing I do know is that someone somewhere at Valve coded the blur routine so that it selectively blurs more pixels than others. If they just wanted to downgrade the visuals, they could have applied a simple uniform blur across the whole scene. For sabotaging their own work as you suggest, they've made things a lot more difficult for themselves than needed!

OK so you're implying that the theory that Valve made a quick/basic port on the 360 makes no sense and that between the two versions the differences are purely due to hardware limitations...

I never said hardware limitations! I said a technical reason. They tried to do something (game engine) and found they couldn't get the same result, with the time and effort they put in. This could be because of a hardware quirk; or a RAM issue; or a streaming issue; or a bug in some code, their's or MS's; or an experimental solution that didn't work out and they hit a release deadline and just had to use a quick solution. There are zillions of reasons why the developer's code, unintentionally, doesn't run as well on one platform as another. It is wrong to take the results of a piece of software an assume that it represents the limits of what the hardware can do.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Of course, betan misinderstanding a post and adding a snide comment as a bonus, I'm shocked gimped as in purposely destroying, like in this case adding a blur filter just to make one version look worse, I've never known a dev to do that.

Or similarly in any other business! Would Laa-Yosh blur out a video they had been working on just to spite some customer they don't like? It's a case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. There's no sense in it, and I can't see any sane company acting in such a way. The only legitimate case I can think of where being pally with Sony helped Valve would be if they were having trouble with both systems, but Sony flew in some code ninjas to help them out where MS didn't. AFAICS though the Valve-Sony friendship is just Sony allowing Steam integration; hardly reason to deliberately reduce XB360 sales.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

at the beginning of the generation, dozens of ps3 games used blur or QAA instead of no AA or 2xAA. It's not as if this aproach is something new;

And there's been plenty of discussion about it, too; and in some cases it did turn out to be a bug.
It's also interesting to see the roles reversed with this game and the X360 getting the blur, there hasn't been too many precedents for that that I'm aware of.

how many people complained about L4D1/2?

I might be the only one who hasn't even seen those games, only the pre-rendered trailers... If they were the same, it's just more for Valve to be ashamed of.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Shifty, in your honest opinion, would or would not the game look better without any blur effect?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It would look better. That doesn't mean they were going for smudged-mess look. Maybe it was an attempt at DLAA that went horribly wrong?? We really need to hear what the blur effect is there for rather than second guessing. Just to be clear here - you are basically accusing Valve of being 'corrupt' and in Sony's pocket, deliberately harming MS's image by making the 360 look like an inferior platform. That strikes me as a pretty serious allegation that shouldn't be made without some pretty substantial evidence in support.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Do not confuse theories / thinking out loud with downright accusations. Do I really have to list the logical steps again? Even you agree that the effect is detrimental to the image quality, so either Valve is very stupid, or there's something intentional behind it.
Knowing their past history, and - in retrospect - obvious bias against the PS3 at the beginning of the generation, it isn't too far fetched to list platform politics as a possible explanation, IMHO.

 

[Trejser]

So why the same thing can't be said about Black Ops for example? MS has exclusive map-pack deal with Activison, and PS3 version of Black Ops is worse in some spects than MW2 and WaW.

Only good version after release was 360 version, PS3 and PC versions were filled with bugs and technical problems. It's obvious that 360 version was the priority and got more resources. This probably can be said about most multiplatform games this generation.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

The difference is that BO's weaknesses are easily explainable by lack of development resources, or time, or by hardware restrictions, whereas the problem with Portal 2 is the result of an intentional move.

Think of it as setting the handbrake to 10% on a regular car. It's not that the engine isn't tuned enough, or the fuel is worse, or the tires are old - someone pulled that lever, intentionally, and that's the only reason for the .

 

[dragonelite]

It would look better. That doesn't mean they were going for smudged-mess look. Maybe it was an attempt at DLAA that went horribly wrong?? We really need to hear what the blur effect is there for rather than second guessing. Just to be clear here - you are basically accusing Valve of being 'corrupt' and in Sony's pocket, deliberately harming MS's image by making the 360 look like an inferior platform. That strikes me as a pretty serious allegation that shouldn't be made without some pretty substantial evidence in support.

Even then shouldn't they atleast test what delivers a better IQ.
Or atleast give the option to turn it off. Consider it is a pc origin engine it should have things build in for no blurr or post processing maybe i can ask someone at school to make a frame grab from the pc version without aa.

Would nice to have a reference frame of the pc version 720p with no AA and medium settings or something.

 

[Mastperf]

http://www.play-mag.co.uk/screenshot-comparison-2/portal-2-ps3-vs-xbox-360-screenshot-gallery/
Gabe Newell stated at last year’s E3 that the PS3 version of Portal 2 will be “the best version, on any platform”
Seems like they had plans all along to push 1 version over the others. It's no different than when it happens with multi-plat titles on PS3.

 

[assurdum]

I asked you which part of what I said, specifically, you considered conjecture. Actually I asked you twice, this is the third time.

You seem determined to compare screenshots. Okay then, take a look at them side by side. What do you notice apart from the blurring and the jaggies? It's not subtle. Maybe the 360's reference level is set to standard, or maybe the gamma is messed up or the HDR is broken, but whatever, it's nasty.

Really, I don't know if you are serious or you tries to push me at this point I continue to not understand what you haven't understood of my quote... isn't it a conjecture substain 360 version is nasty because Valve launching steam only on the ps3? There are a lot of examples where even to have the lead on the ps3 platform not avoid to be even worse version of the 360 version...

 

[Trejser]

Really, I don't know if you are serious or you tries to push me at this point I continue to not understand what you haven't understood of my quote... isn't it a conjecture substain 360 version is nasty because Valve launching steam only on the ps3? There are a lot of examples where even to have the lead on the ps3 platform not avoid to be even worse version of the 360 version...

I hope you're not talking about Ghostbusters, devs clearly lied about this (it was even proved in some thread here IIRC). Mirror's Edge led on the PS3 and PS3 version was slughty worse, but that's UE3 limitation I think. I can't recall any other games that led on PS3 and were worse on this platform.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

http://www.play-mag.co.uk/screenshot-comparison-2/portal-2-ps3-vs-xbox-360-screenshot-gallery/
Gabe Newell stated at last year’s E3 that the PS3 version of Portal 2 will be “the best version, on any platform”
Seems like they had plans all along to push 1 version over the others. It's no different than when it happens with multi-plat titles on PS3.

I thought conspiracy theories were frowned upon, in this section.