The Big Forza 2 Thread *

Interesting comments by Che regarding the damage model and realism. (criticized earlier in this thread)

Q) what? first manufactors didn´t want to allow damage, now they will put limits to the damage?
"you can wreck our car, but be kind"

WTF?

what´s the truth on this Che? hardware/difficulty/lack of time limitations or licensing limitations?
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Licensing of course.

No flipping, burning, crushing the A/B pillars, drivers through windows, dismemberment, losing tires, blah blah, the list goes on.

Manufacturers run a business selling cars. Why would they want to give you permission to destroy their IP and make their products look bad?

Seriously, it was a lot of work getting damage across the board for all cars. The amount of effort and content coordination was mind boggling for 300+ cars. Think about it -- for every car in the game, we had to send back to the manufacturer detailed screenshots showing all possible damage effects to every car, and then had to then look at all these shots and then give us approvals on whether it's good enough to go into the game. Often times, they wanted things changed.

I read somewhere today that GT5 may not have damage in the game at all. I don't blame Polyphony for that decision at all. It's really really tough -- both from a content production point of view (having to create tons of different models for every car due to ways it can get damaged) and a content licensing point of view.

I had taken all this for granted before I joined Turn 10, of course.
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Tap In said:
Interesting comments by Che regarding the damage model and realism. (criticized earlier in this thread)
Click to expand...

I knew it's exactly like that. I had a discussion on these boards in a another thread a while back about the damage modelling in games and the following took place.

Dr Evil said:
I have shed some tears over the fact that there hasn't been damage modelling in Gran Turismo games, mainly because the car manufactures for some reason have the right to say that their cars can't be damaged.
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ERP said:
FWIW this is not the reason.
AFAIK only one of the manufacturers in Gran Tourismo had any issue with car damage, and I'm sure that could be negotiated around.
None of the manufacturers will let you use the cars to kill or maim people or have them explode into flames killing the driver, but thats not what people generally mean when they talk about GT.
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Dr Evil said:
Are you 100% on this? I might be wrong, but I seem to have a memory of refusal from some manufacturer which eventually lead to no damage modelling or that the cars can't flip over, but like I said I might remember it all wrong.
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fearsomepirate said:
IIRC, in interviews around the time, that lead dude from PD said that system power was the main thing preventing him from collision damage, because he'd prefer to not do it at all than not do it very accurately. So maybe we'll see it in GT5.
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ERP said:
I worked on a game with licensed vehicles, so I have a pretty good idea what the manufacturers will and won't allow.
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I think what Che said pretty much sums up my previous thoughts. Although ERP wasn't basically wrong, I think my point that the manufacturers have way too much saying how for example laws of physics work in games was nicely echoed by Che. The fact is that the manufacturers have a huge issue with this and line where they are willing to go is very far from acceptable. The damage modelling in Forza 2 is imo quite ridiculous because of this fact. I remember seeing some Forza dev demoing it during GDC and he drove straight to a wall multiple times with very high speed and finally after gigantic effort he was able to drop the front bumber :rolleyes:.

I honestly have very hard time understanding how a car manufacturer can say E.g. that their car can not under any situation be allowed to flip over... I think realistic laws of physics should be allowed in a driving game, especially in one that tries to be a simulator. For a moment I thought Forza 2 is going to have atleast semi realistic damage modelling, but after I saw that GDC demoing, it was perfectly apparent that it will still be ridiculous and imo at that point it doesn't make any difference whether it's there at all.
 
Different car makers have different rules. If you look at Toca 3 cars lose tires, roll, and get some pretty extreme damage -- and it has a number of licensed cars. I guess the question is BrandX more important than more realistic damage modelling. Some will say yes (and would prefer no damage bumper cars) and others will say no, and some will say inbetween. Anyhow, the bumper damage shown so far looks really poor, although the glass and scrapes can look good.
 
Dr Evil said:
For a moment I thought Forza 2 is going to have atleast semi realistic damage modelling, but after I saw that GDC demoing, it was perfectly apparent that it will still be ridiculous and imo at that point it doesn't make any difference whether it's there at all.
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Huh? Big LOL at that, there cetainly is a point to it being in there. It's the effect on gameplay which makes a damage system so integral to a sim racer. Not how it looks. After all, sim racers are about gameplay first and foremost.

It would be nice if they could make it more realistic, but it worked very well in Forza 1,*most* big collisions took you out of the race, and they're jacking that up further, so as far as I'm concerned they are improving on an already excellent system.
 
opinion of how damage affects gameplay by Che


I'm not saying Forza 2's damage is the end all be all here, but let me give you an example of how damage played into the strategy of my Porsche manufacturer race series last night.

So I'm in my 914/6 as the underdog of the pack. The 7 other AI driven Porsches on the track are all packing more power and torque (4 of them were in the high A class range and 3 of them -- including me -- were in the mid to high B class range). Our battleground is Mugello Short, which consists of a series of esses after the opening sweeper, leading downhill into a final right-hander and then onto the back straight to the start/finish line.

Being underpowered, I had to gain position through every corner and really use the car's featherweight (around 1780 lbs) to brake late and turn on a dime. But try as I did, I would slip in and out of first, second and third if only because the GT2 and 997 GT3 would scream past my car with ease on the back straight.

So here's my point. I'm weaving through the pack and there's a little rubbing going on since Mugello is pretty narrow all around. Nothing unsportsman-like, of course. The AI does its best to predict my line and stay out of my way and I have the courtesy not to rear end their cars at 90 mph. But it's tension-city all the way. On the one hand, I'm fighting my tires which are on the edge of traction, and on the other, I'm scared shitless that I'll make accidental and excessive contact with one of the cars, get shoved off the track and sideswipe a wall (at these speeds, it would really screw up your car). Since my car is so light, any sort of impact would have sent me careening off the track.

This is how damage works for me. It's a deterrent, and it adds a lot of terrific tension to the proceedings. Plus, you've got to pay for your repairs after the race.
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Keyword there is 'tension', that's what damage adds to a race summed up in one word. It can make it much more exhilarating and rewarding when you win.
 
I hope the damage is more consistant (I think that is the word I want to use). Sometimes in Forza 1 you can ride the wall and suffer little to no damage. Other times you ride the wall and your steering is screwed.

But overall I am excited. It is a shame my DFP wont work on this game :mad:. Any one wanna trade a DFP for the MS sterring wheel :cry: ?
 
scooby_dooby said:
Huh? Big LOL at that, there cetainly is a point to it being in there. It's the effect on gameplay which makes a damage system so integral to a sim racer. Not how it looks. After all, sim racers are about gameplay first and foremost.
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I was only talking about the visual side of it, imo it makes hardly difference if things don't break at all or if they break very unrealisticly. The actual damage modelling under the skin that affects the driving was good and I expect it to be good in the future too.
 
rosman said:
Gorgeous. They've fixed the lightning , it looks really nice now :)
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Looks nice, shame they used such a ugly car (IMO of course).

What i liked the most about that video is that they really managed to capture proper engine sounds, cars in all games i've played hardly feel like something even remotely close to the real thing.

That was a good step up from what i'm used to hearing.
 
Can someone tell me how the red ring got there on the disc (I guess it was burned due to high speed brake). It's not symmetric, what happened? The other car has the red ring symmetric, however.

 
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