The Big Forza 2 Thread *

[Arwin]

The game that I found achieved this very well was Viper Racing. The AI was very good also in trying to avoid collisions and racing like a human.

I have enjoyed it somewhat in the more Sim like racers, just to give you that complete simulation feeling. But even there, I prefer attention to proper wear simulation (tires warming, wearing, deflating, etc) over actual damage. Though mis-shifting and blowing up your engine could be a fun addition ... (for cars where that is possible of course )

 

[Capeta]

But we all know the king of Japanese 4 bangers is the 4G63

Nope...3S-GTE is still king.

Im sorry guys but the ultimate 4pot engine is the Brittish designed COSWORTH YB as found in the Ford Sierra and Escort RS Cosworths. Its design is 22 years old now and its STILL out performing ANY 2lre 4pot around.

Greekdragster has one pumping out over 1200BHP and its being fitted with a bigger turbo so it can achieve over 1500

Infact heres a pic of the new turbo next to the engine..

Uh..no..read above.

 

[Fu3lFr3nzy]

Also when you consider full damage modelling, and the awesome new options they've added to the modifcation system:

• We’ve also added several new upgrade types, especially in the engine area. For example, we’ve split out engine block upgrades and top half upgrades. Engine block upgrades increase the engine durability, decrease its inertia and provide mild power increases, while cam and valve upgrades raise the redline, radically change the audio and skew the engine curve toward high RPM horsepower.
  ---
• we’ve added roughly 100 more engine swaps for even more cars. That’s cool, but by far the coolest new upgrade is the powertrain swap. Yup, that’s right. Now, you can not only swap out the powerplant, you can even put in a new drivetrain. For example, ever want to put an AWD Lancer EVO drivetrain into a FWD Eclipse? Now you can – only in Forza Motorsport 2 of course!

Full Cam and Block upgrades/tuning, 100 new engine swaps, Powertrain transplants??? So sweet.

This game is a car modder's wet dream....

Best news I've heard in a racing game in a long time. Ignore the lack of photorealism, this game is a must buy on my list!

 

[Diamond.G]

Nope...3S-GTE is still king.



Uh..no..read above.

SR20DET says hi

You guys have me looking into getting Forza to play on my 360... I just got crackdown and have yet to play superman returns (christmas present).

 

[scooby_dooby]

No, not really. If someone wanted to use the EVO, why not just take the EVO instead of getting the drivetrain into a different car? <shrugs>

1st of all, maybe cause the EVO handles like a boat???

But most importantly, cause it's fun?? Most of the enjoyment for me is taking a daily driver car, mixing and matching parts and seeing how they perform, tuning them, trying again until you find something you really like.

Being able to swap powertrains just takes it to the next level.

 

[22psi]

1st of all, maybe cause the EVO handles like a boat???

But most importantly, cause it's fun?? Most of the enjoyment for me is taking a daily driver car, mixing and matching parts and seeing how they perform, tuning them, trying again until you find something you really like.

Being able to swap powertrains just takes it to the next level.

EVO handles like a boat!!??!?

SR20DET? 3S-GTE?

Looks like we're going to have to race each other online when this baby hits to be sure! 4G63 all the way!

 

[scooby_dooby]

EVO handles like a boat!!??!?

SR20DET? 3S-GTE?

Looks like we're going to have to race each other online when this baby hits to be sure! 4G63 all the way!

In Forza it does, never drove one IRL. I'd imagine it would be much better on a rally course than asphalt.

 

[22psi]

In Forza it does, never drove one IRL. I'd imagine it would be much better on a rally course than asphalt.

From the EVO5 on, it is one of the top handling cars of almost ANY class, on asphalt or dirt. In FM I remembered it handling very well.

Check this vid out EVO 9 MR vs Lamborghini Murcielago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y6lIaGZA4w

I am no way saying an EVO is better than a Lamborghini Murcielago, just trying to demonstrate the EVO's handling prowess.

 

[scooby_dooby]

From the EVO5 on, it is one of the top handling cars of almost ANY class, on asphalt or dirt. In FM I remembered it handling very well.

Check this vid out EVO 9 MR vs Lamborghini Murcielago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y6lIaGZA4w

I am no way saying an EVO is better than a Lamborghini Murcielago, just trying to demonstrate the EVO's handling prowess.

Well I hated it, which is a good example of why someone might want to swap powerplants. Granted, in Forza every car handles so differently, that you really have to put time into each vehicle to get used to it's characteristics, an I didn't put alot of time into it. Still, I absolutely hated the EVO in Fz1, would rather drive a skyline any day.

 

[22psi]

Well I hated it, which is a good example of why someone might want to swap powerplants. Granted, in Forza every car handles so differently, that you really have to put time into each vehicle to get used to it's characteristics, an I didn't put alot of time into it. Still, I absolutely hated the EVO in Fz1, would rather drive a skyline any day.

Those are fighting words! Just kidding... I too prefer a R34 GTR.

 

[almighty]

EVO's are for pussys who cant drive, they have to rely on computer controlled diffs and such to get round a track in one piece

Real drivers drive cars with NO computer assistance

And i hope they keep the engine swaps in FZ2 realistic

 

[rounin]

Real drivers drive cars with NO computer assistance

So I'm guessing you're as cheap as me and driving a 80-90 era car MR2 driver here

 

[infinity4]

Photo mode and Xbox Live Online Auction House trailer

http://download.gametrailers.com/gt_vault/t_forza2_photoanauction.wmv

is this first time we see new york track?

 

[Crayon]

A subject near and dear to my heart.

Im sorry guys but the ultimate 4pot engine is the Brittish designed COSWORTH YB

Here, here!

Nope...3S-GTE is still king.

A good all rounder, I guess. But a strange choice considering the 4age and it's many derivitives are under the same manufacturer, most accomplished, more varied and downright cooler.

SR20DET says hi

Get that shit out of here! Aluminum is for cans. Look at the valvetrain of an SR next to the engine it replaced, the CA18DET and shed a tear if you're any sort of gearhead.

1st of all, maybe cause the EVO handles like a boat???

You think so? Stick to videogame driving and the road will be a safer place for all!

Those are fighting words! Just kidding... I too prefer a R34 GTR.

Can't comment. Never driven a GTR myself. I've never met a GTR fan who has!

Altho I do have a funny GTR story....
I had a friend who picked up this shady old Pontiac GTA Trans-Am. Always had little problems here and there. Strong runner tho. He was always talking about how he would beat this car and that at stoplight encounters, but I was never there to see it. So one night I took him out to a midnight race in hopes that it would humble him a bit.

Little visual aid:

No one would take him seriosuly, and he never got to run against any big money. But car after car he lined up against, he beat. Some he would stomp into the ground, and some he would just edge out, but he was running perfectly consistant every time, he wasn't losing a single race, and he was attracting alot of attention as he defeated faster and faster cars.

Then some guy pulls up in an R32 GT-R, and tells my friend (politly) that he wants to race him right now. The crowd is import oriented and gets very excited over this confrontation. They line up, and my buddy, unintimidated, does the exact same thing he had been doing all night... lets go of the brake and pins the gas down, and this old Trans Am with oxidized white paint jumps off the line and just walks down the dowtrack, handily defeating the almighty GTR. Crowd goes batshit insane.

He gets back from the big end and asks me "what was that thing?" And I say "just some pos Nissan. Good run, man." It was golden. Object lesson in the nature of street racing, it was.

He did have one defeat that night. It was by a very well driven Celica GT-S. Apparently stock. At the time it was a very new car, so the crowd was abuzz with how the new Celica is faster than a "Skyline".

 

[Acert93]

And the arguement for damage is...

I guess it's just because I'm used to really high-level competition on LAN Parties with Gran Turismo linked up. There are two factors there which make damage less interesting:

- The competition is so tight, that a crash or a mistake like that loses you so much time that you can't afford it anyway most of the time.

Just like real life.

You cannot afford to lose time from a crash, so you choose to either (a) take the risk-reward scenario knowing there could be dire circumstances or (b) give the extra space with the consequences that follow for that.

- sometimes you are crashed because someone else brakes too late and bumps you off the track. This is already bad enough and can cost you the race easily, but if it would also damage your car it would be a lot worse.

This sort of stuff can happen in real life, how you adjust for it in a game is a "penalty" system. Tracking a racers history and their skill (and habits) can help filter through gamers.

Fact of the matter is who wants to play a sim where someone nails them in the rear to push them off the course? Sure, it happens (as in being the accident causer) to the best of us -- just like real life -- but what should the consequences be?

IMO those who take racing seriously they should have a "Pro Racer" rating and when this happens they lose the race. No biggie. Those who tend to be wreckless get a "Weekend Wreckless Warrior" rating and you know that if you want a realistic sim-racing experience to stay far and away from them.

Especially the latter makes it less interesting. I personally feel that in that respect damage isn't helpful in competition and is better replaced by penalties that affect the offender only.

In a perfect world there would be options to cater to a wide range of tastes. I wouldn't begrudge someone the preference for no damage, but I think for a simulator it is pretty much required to replicate the experience. Because if you cannot damage your car and have to cope with such then it has lost an element of realism.

I agree with Arwin. I guess NASCAR and other competitive championships from america where crashing plays a central part in the race is something we Europeans don't think too highly of.

That is why you guys just drive safer

It isn't that Europeans have races where "Damage = Off". NASCAR and Euro drivers have the same propensity to crash and see the effects. The differences in rules, as well as risk-reward (and entertainment), are reflected in the chances taken and the effects.

There are obviously different ways to look at this, but I would put the onus on the gamers for damage in a sim game: If you don't like to damage your car, drive accordingly.

Removing damage modeling--and then allow "bumper cars"--is a double negative in my book because you are not only taking away realism (damage), but equally creating a mode of competition where the racing has been altered significantly where it may no longer reflect what it is emulating.

I play a bit of Toca 3. The driving model leaves a lot to be desired IMO (kind of floaty), but having a very robust damage modelling system as well as online play adds a ton--there is a lot of tension in the races. You really have to know the courses and know where there is a good place to pass... and where NOT to even try. Or you will pay.

Shaving tenths of seconds is always a win-lose proposition in Toca with a thin grey line. Cutting a curner a little closer may give you the edge you need to overtake the competition, but being slightly too aggressive can lead to bumping a wall or such which can damage your car, negatively impacting performance.

Anyhow, my general feeling is damage adds to the realism. Further, by removing it there is a necessity to fudge the driving model because an element of reality needs to be coped with arbitrarily another way. And in my personal experience having damage changes my view of the race. It makes me MUCH more respectful of other drivers, heightens my alertness, but also increases the tension in regards to my course tactics. That which worked for a no-damage racing model is now far too risky.

I think the ideal option would be to give gamers the ability to enable/disable features and filter these (everything from the degree of damage modelling from realistic to totally off, off offering either 'ghost' cars or bumper cars, filter driver skill, and so forth).

 

[almighty]

So I'm guessing you're as cheap as me and driving a 80-90 era car MR2 driver here

Escort Cosworth

 

[Phil]

1st of all, maybe cause the EVO handles like a boat???

No it doesn't, and I have driven EVOs (and chased them on track) to know better.
What you're refering to is the nature of a AWD to understeer slightly (or less overstear happy) than a RWD car. The grip and cornering speed of an EVO though is up there with the best various supersprtscars have to offer, both on the rally/dirt tracks but also on grippy surfaces.

But most importantly, cause it's fun?? Most of the enjoyment for me is taking a daily driver car, mixing and matching parts and seeing how they perform, tuning them, trying again until you find something you really like.

Being able to swap powertrains just takes it to the next level.

Perhaps I'm just not convinced because reality shows that you can't just take on engine out of one car and have it perform exactly the same in another car without any further modifications. I.e. taking an engine from an EVO IX (280bhp) and putting it into a car like a MR2 would first compromise weight and weight distribution (the EVO engine is much heavier than the alluminium engine of a standard MR2). Then there is the room issue one has to tacke for any engine swap, so you can forget all the large intercoolers in the EVO because there's simply no room in a MR2 to fit them or the airflow at the back of the car to justify it. So at the end, you'll be lucky to see substantially more power in a MR2 and have instead got a more heavy engine doing if only a bit better but have a much more dangerous / oversteer happy car because of all that weight at the back of the car.

In other words: Engine conversions (or any other parts for that matter) is science in itself and that begs the question; does the game go to those lengths to simulate all these real worlds issues? Remember, this is Forza we're talking about, not Need for Speed underground or some other game that gets away with it. I doubt it - simply because there are so many combinations and there's no way of knowing how which 'swap' would influence the characteristics of a finely tuned car.


Almighty:

EVO's are for pussys who cant drive, they have to rely on computer controlled diffs and such to get round a track in one piece

I always like to compare driving an EVO to playing PlayStation. Aim and point in the right direction and somehow, that active diff will keep you on the track. It's impressive technology no doubt, but doesn't quite meet my criteria for puristic and rewarding driving. :smile:

 

[Arwin]

And the arguement for damage is...

Just like real life.

You cannot afford to lose time from a crash, so you choose to either (a) take the risk-reward scenario knowing there could be dire circumstances or (b) give the extra space with the consequences that follow for that.

Yes but my point was that a good game already makes you lose sufficient time from the crash alone. You don't need the extra penalty of having a partly or non-functioning car.

This sort of stuff can happen in real life, how you adjust for it in a game is a "penalty" system. Tracking a racers history and their skill (and habits) can help filter through gamers.

Fine, but say we are doing a 80 lap race, and you rear-end me in the first corner and I'm out. I'd prefer to lose 5-10 seconds over not being able to continue the race at all. There are aspects of real racing that I am sure we would have removed already if possible. I don't care for bringing those aspects into virtual racing. The great thing about virtual racing is that you can enhance the experience to make it more fair as a sport. At least, that's my opinion. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a nice option to have, but it's not on top of my list to improve competitive racing.

Fact of the matter is who wants to play a sim where someone nails them in the rear to push them off the course? Sure, it happens (as in being the accident causer) to the best of us -- just like real life -- but what should the consequences be?

IMO those who take racing seriously they should have a "Pro Racer" rating and when this happens they lose the race. No biggie. Those who tend to be wreckless get a "Weekend Wreckless Warrior" rating and you know that if you want a realistic sim-racing experience to stay far and away from them.

Well sure, but each one you meet for the first time can 'wreck' your race completely.

In a perfect world there would be options to cater to a wide range of tastes. I wouldn't begrudge someone the preference for no damage, but I think for a simulator it is pretty much required to replicate the experience. Because if you cannot damage your car and have to cope with such then it has lost an element of realism.

Like I said, some elements of realism decrease the quality of competition and I can really do without. For instance, if you wanted to really simulate racing, you'd also have to make your computer pollute as much as real racing cars, and maybe make it just as expensive as well, etc. But why would you want to simulate those to aspects?

It isn't that Europeans have races where "Damage = Off". NASCAR and Euro drivers have the same propensity to crash and see the effects. The differences in rules, as well as risk-reward (and entertainment), are reflected in the chances taken and the effects.

The difference is that Nascar is boring as hell even with crashing, whereas most european competitions have enough variety to the actual racing to make crashing less of a 'highlight'.

where the racing has been altered significantly where it may no longer reflect what it is emulating.

My view is that it enhances reality to the point where it is more about racing skills and less about luck. Luck is a factor that holds no place in competition in my book, and factors bringing luck into competition should be reduced as much as possible.

Shaving tenths of seconds is always a win-lose proposition in Toca with a thin grey line. Cutting a curner a little closer may give you the edge you need to overtake the competition, but being slightly too aggressive can lead to bumping a wall or such which can damage your car, negatively impacting performance.

If you hit the grass and it slows you down or spins you, if you bump into a wall and it slows you down or spins you. If you cut a corner and get a black flag and have to take a penalty, etc. All those things are enough to make damage superfluous. After all, you can realistically cut a corner and not have damage. So you need those rules anyway - they exist in a fair few forms of racing competition for good reason.

I think the ideal option would be to give gamers the ability to enable/disable features and filter these (everything from the degree of damage modelling from realistic to totally off, off offering either 'ghost' cars or bumper cars, filter driver skill, and so forth).

That is definitely true. Say for instance a game offers realistic wind modelling. If I do a time-trial and want to compete on a global online leaderboard, that wind modelling better be either exactly the same during the course of a lap, or completely off, or else I'm going to be really annoyed.

 

[CEO]

A subject near and dear to my heart.



Here, here!



A good all rounder, I guess. But a strange choice considering the 4age and it's many derivitives are under the same manufacturer, most accomplished, more varied and downright cooler.



Get that shit out of here! Aluminum is for cans. Look at the valvetrain of an SR next to the engine it replaced, the CA18DET and shed a tear if you're any sort of gearhead.



You think so? Stick to videogame driving and the road will be a safer place for all!



Can't comment. Never driven a GTR myself. I've never met a GTR fan who has!

Altho I do have a funny GTR story....
I had a friend who picked up this shady old Pontiac GTA Trans-Am. Always had little problems here and there. Strong runner tho. He was always talking about how he would beat this car and that at stoplight encounters, but I was never there to see it. So one night I took him out to a midnight race in hopes that it would humble him a bit.

Little visual aid:

No one would take him seriosuly, and he never got to run against any big money. But car after car he lined up against, he beat. Some he would stomp into the ground, and some he would just edge out, but he was running perfectly consistant every time, he wasn't losing a single race, and he was attracting alot of attention as he defeated faster and faster cars.

Then some guy pulls up in an R32 GT-R, and tells my friend (politly) that he wants to race him right now. The crowd is import oriented and gets very excited over this confrontation. They line up, and my buddy, unintimidated, does the exact same thing he had been doing all night... lets go of the brake and pins the gas down, and this old Trans Am with oxidized white paint jumps off the line and just walks down the dowtrack, handily defeating the almighty GTR. Crowd goes batshit insane.

He gets back from the big end and asks me "what was that thing?" And I say "just some pos Nissan. Good run, man." It was golden. Object lesson in the nature of street racing, it was.

He did have one defeat that night. It was by a very well driven Celica GT-S. Apparently stock. At the time it was a very new car, so the crowd was abuzz with how the new Celica is faster than a "Skyline".

yeah lol. Where you from? The United States? Because guys from the United States tend to think that driving in a straight is called street racing.

oh and afaik a GTR beats the shit out of that Trans AM? in terms of handling. Don't you think?

 

[Arwin]

yeah lol. Where you from? The United States? Because guys from the United States tend to think that driving in a straight is called street racing.

oh and afaik a GTR beats the shit out of that Trans AM? in terms of handling. Don't you think?

The only measure of a car's value is the length of its dick, right?

On a related note, if I remember correctly from watching a whole series of Japanese car-shows, the BMW M series completely whacked all Japanese competitors consistently. Has that changed yet?