Supposed MS insider discusses RRoD errors, Falcon at 10% failure rate?

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I'd like to see your math there...

OK, but be aware that I'm a physicist by training, so I consider 0.5 to be approximately equal to one. ;) The stated range of cost for the extension of the warranty was 1.05 to 1.15 billion. I'll take the midpoint of that range, 1.1 billion. A Core/Arcade system costs $280 today, and that includes the cost of the power supply, wireless controller, and memory card. If the cost of just the console is $250 today, and, say, $170 at the end of the warranty extension, then the average cost over the replacement period may be $210. That means that the $1.1B will pay for 5.2 million consoles, which is more than 40% of 12 million. And that's if MS decided to replace all consoles with new ones at some point, which it certainly isn't doing right now.

You said this before and let it slide, but now you've repeated it.

It's not just the extra two years. It's the total cost of this defect that they're pegging at $1B, and that's for all consoles produced up to that point. The only repair costs excluded from this figure are those done up to the financial quarter before the announcement.

Repair costs are hard to quantify. Who knows if every damaged unit can be serviced, and then there's shipping and customer service costs as well.

scooby_dooby alluded to that too. Do you have a reference for that? I thought that the $1B was only for the extension of the RROD warranty, but I'm fully prepared to be wrong.

Regarding the cost of repairs, I was going by the fact that in the "early days" of this problem, when the warranty was only 90 days, MS was charging $130 for repairs. I don't think MS was making a lot of profit on repairs, but I doubt that they were being overly generous either. So my reasoning was that if all 12 million consoles failed, about 4 million would fail in the first year, and 8 million would fail in the next two years. Since I was under the possibly mistaken impression that the $1.1B was only for the two years of the extension, I thought it would be enough to cover all expenses related to refurbishment of the 8 million consoles.

Wasn't the $1b split 50/50 to cover existing units and future problems? :) Ohh no, that'd put the number at 10%...!!@@ zomg

Even if the $1.1B was for all warranty expenses past, present, and future, that's enough to refurbish fully 70% of the first 12 million consoles, or replace 40%, as argued above. I'm not sure how you get to 10%.

Whether the real figure is 40%, 70%, or 100%, it's ridiculous. It's a shame, because the software library, Live, Arcade, the controller ergonomics, the hardware scaler, and everything but the reliability are better than the competition. But there's no point in pretending that the massive failure rate of the first ~10 million consoles is unverifiable Internet banter. It's real, and we have plenty of good evidence for it being extraordinarily high, even if we don't know the exact figure to two significant digits.

It doesn't seem to have hurt their sales much, and if MS has their problems fixed, and takes care of existing customers, I will still look to them to be platform provider of choice. I lean toward taking Bill Gates at his word when he says that the current hardware revision is reliable, so that's encouraging.
 
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scooby_dooby alluded to that too. Do you have a reference for that? I thought that the $1B was only for the extension of the RROD warranty, but I'm fully prepared to be wrong.

Regarding the cost of repairs, I was going by the fact that in the "early days" of this problem, when the warranty was only 90 days, MS was charging $130 for repairs. I don't think MS was making a lot of profit on repairs, but I doubt that they were being overly generous either. So my reasoning was that if all 12 million consoles failed, about 4 million would fail in the first year, and 8 million would fail in the next two years. Since I was under the possibly mistaken impression that the $1.1B was only for the two years of the extension, I thought it would be enough to cover all expenses related to refurbishment of the 8 million consoles.



Even if the $1.1B was for all warranty expenses past, present, and future, that's enough to refurbish fully 70% of the first 12 million consoles, or replace 40%, as argued above. I'm not sure how you get to 10%.

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Part of the warranty extension plan and 1B charge was that they were reimbursing people who had paid to have their machines serviced.
 
Regarding the cost of repairs, I was going by the fact that in the "early days" of this problem, when the warranty was only 90 days, MS was charging $130 for repairs. I don't think MS was making a lot of profit on repairs, but I doubt that they were being overly generous either.
That's pretty much the maximum MS could charge without a massive backlash (even bigger than we've already witnessed). Who knows what the real cost is. As NavNucST3 mentioned, MS is offering to pay back all those people too.
 
That's pretty much the maximum MS could charge without a massive backlash (even bigger than we've already witnessed). Who knows what the real cost is. As NavNucST3 mentioned, MS is offering to pay back all those people too.

They didn't just offer, they sent out the cheques.
 
That's pretty much the maximum MS could charge without a massive backlash (even bigger than we've already witnessed). Who knows what the real cost is. As NavNucST3 mentioned, MS is offering to pay back all those people too.

It's true, we don't know what the real cost is, but $130 seems pretty reasonable to me. iSuppli estimated that the whole motherboard, with CPU, GPU, and RAM cost $204 in November of 2006. It must be less than that by now.
 
It's true, we don't know what the real cost is, but $130 seems pretty reasonable to me. iSuppli estimated that the whole motherboard, with CPU, GPU, and RAM cost $204 in November of 2006. It must be less than that by now.
Then you also have labour to salvage the working parts, install the new mobo, repackage it, and on top of that there's customer service and shipping. It could easily be $200 even now.
 
Then you also have labour to salvage the working parts, install the new mobo, repackage it, and on top of that there's customer service and shipping. It could easily be $200 even now.

I think you misunderstood. The estimate included all components soldered to the motherboard, including CPU, GPU, and RAM.
 
I think you misunderstood. The estimate included all components soldered to the motherboard, including CPU, GPU, and RAM.
To refurbish an RROD unit, you have to confirm the original problem, disassemble it, put the new mobo in, assemble it, test it, pack it, and ship it.

You can't just send the customer the new mobo. There's a lot of cost in refurbishing beyond component cost, including customer service.
 
same study says that failure rate is likely to go up as devices get more use which would also explain spike in failure rate that occurred last spring/summer. if one in six consoles will fail the word of mouth will weaken the xbox brand considerably. msft needs to address this asap.
 
Has there been any confirmation either way that Falcon addressed the problem? If there is, I'd say it's largely addressed with Falcon + covering all existing consoles for free. If there is confirmation that Falcon has similar failure rate... really really big fubar.
 
I just received my 360 yesterday. It's the same console (launch unit 11/05) I sent them. The problem was the motherboard (there was a repair report in the package) and it froze twice when browsing the marketplace...
Is that common? Has anyone had problems with the marketplace lately? I'm trying to understand if it's network or hardware related...

I have a strange feeling that this one won't last 2 months...
 
I just received my 360 yesterday. It's the same console (launch unit 11/05) I sent them. The problem was the motherboard (there was a repair report in the package) and it froze twice when browsing the marketplace...
Is that common? Has anyone had problems with the marketplace lately? I'm trying to understand if it's network or hardware related...

I have a strange feeling that this one won't last 2 months...

Yes, there have been problems with marketplace and XBOX Live in general. So no need to worry on that front, especially since in the dashboard the system is not really working hard. Freezes in games, though, are warning signs of imminent failure.
 
Has there been any confirmation either way that Falcon addressed the problem? If there is, I'd say it's largely addressed with Falcon + covering all existing consoles for free. If there is confirmation that Falcon has similar failure rate... really really big fubar.
Well according to that report, SquareTrade's CEO estimated "most if not all were the original motherboard." Of course we have no idea what kind of model distribution there is among the 360's that were warrantied.

Whether it's addressed or not, the damage is done. You can't erase bad publicity in the retail market. MS has made great hardware for years with all their computer peripherals and even the original XBox. Now their reputation is sullied. Car manufacturers have a similar problem, as even if GM or Ford are producing high quality cars now (not that I know if they are), Japanese manufacturers will be seen as better quality for decades.

Of course, there's no problem with such a consumer mentality. It makes prominent manufacturers very reluctant to release knowingly bad products.
 
Yes, there have been problems with marketplace and XBOX Live in general. So no need to worry on that front, especially since in the dashboard the system is not really working hard. Freezes in games, though, are warning signs of imminent failure.

Thanx, that's a relief. I was ready to go loco and start swearing like a truck driver in the ear of the first ms rep I'd get on the phone greek style...
The only game I tested the unit with is Gears with no freezes. So all's well I guess.
 
A new insider story.

Xbox 360 defects: an inside history of Microsoft’s video game console woes
http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/05/x...istory-of-microsofts-video-game-console-woes/

Long, but good, read. Cements most of what I've read so far.

Didn't want to delay. Bad communication between outsourced companies. Management over-riding engineers. Pb-free RoHS spec solder balls cracking under stress of warping motherboards due to inadequate cooling (combination of a case too small & heat not escaping fast enough).

What I didn't know was that MS shut down all production between Jan & Jun '07 while figuring out how to fix it. That's a bit of a shocker. But it makes sense in retrospect; that's about when they started returning refurbed units w/ the larger heatsinks w/ heatpipes.

I just hope they learned from their mistake & dont try to cheap out again w/ Jasper thinking they can replace the improved GPU heatsink w/ a low cost inefficient unit because of the move to 65nm.
 
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