Er, have you been following this discussion? There are people here who seem to think that MS did nothing wrong! What MS really learned is: build up a strong enough software library, make people invest enough money in your library, and even if their console proves to be completely unreliable, they'll continue to come back because of their investment. 360 sales are up year-over-year. What this generation has actually proven, among other things, is that reliability is not that important a quality for a console.
Supposed MS insider discusses RRoD errors, Falcon at 10% failure rate?
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Er, have you been following this discussion? There are people here who seem to think that MS did nothing wrong! What MS really learned is: build up a strong enough software library, make people invest enough money in your library, and even if their console proves to be completely unreliable, they'll continue to come back because of their investment. 360 sales are up year-over-year. What this generation has actually proven, among other things, is that reliability is not that important a quality for a console.
No they're not. You're trying to confuse the issue by bringing up unrelated comparisons, or exaggerating other hardware problems.
This is just nonsense. Not only are you arguing off anecdotal evidence, as usual, you're bringing bias into this, while people have been very politely avoiding calling you out on any bias of your own. You're turning it into an 'for us or against' us issue, and this is a false dichotomy. There was a problem, and people who complain are not anti-MS. They're anti poorly-built products, they have a strictly 'want consumer electronics to not break' agenda.
I'm done arguing with you; I know that it's not long before you accuse me of having an agenda of my own, or before you just cycle back and repeat the same arguments you know not to be true from 5 pages ago.
I don't think anyone here feels MS did nothing wrong. Many of us feel that MS responed properly to the problem and now the issue is moot. MS learned to build up a strong library , brand name , and get people to invest and they can ride out any hardware issues from past consoles. So far there has been one system every generation (except the 16bit one) that has had hardware problems at launch.
I'm sorry. I think your exaggerating the 360s hardware problems. Its not like every xbox 360 has failed. There are many people out there with launch day units that are still happly playing with it.
I'm sorry. Bias ? I actually own every next gen system. I have a ps3 , I have a xbox 360 , I have a wii. Last generation I had a gamecube and a ps2. The generation before I had a saturn , ps1 and n64. I can't help it if I've never experianced a problem with my 360. However MS has replaced every failed 360 from the RROD issue and in most cases have provided additional compensation to those affected.
You have yet to answer what you want ms to do. What else can they do. They not only replaced the defective units but gave away additional free stuff. What would you have them do. What would satisfy you.
The only bias I see here is yours. You just complain about a past problem and don't even attempt to explain how MS's response to the problem is lacking and how you would improve it. Its very obvious that nothing less than a full recall or MS leaving the market place will satisfy you. However I don't see how a recall of working units is going to solve anything , even using extremely anti ms rrod numbers you still have 70% of the pre falcon units functioning out in the wild. Why recall 70% of the units if there are no problems and people are enjoying them. Taking that route wont you now inconvience those who do not have the problems making it an even bigger issue. What about falcon units and newer units that have a much lower failure rate which some estimate at 10% or less. Should we recall 90% of those units also.
Whats your solution .
And here is a real strawman arugement. You come in and complain , you provide no thoughts on a solution and then you run away when people don't subsribe to your cool-aid
Nope you didn´t get it, but it´s ok i got my point proven pr excellence
My bad about the PSU on the XBOX, i just recalled some weird looking cable from way back.
All MS learned is that you can get away with an unreliable product if you have a good warranty backing it. MS extended the warranty for three years for RROD and retroactively extended the coverage to include consoles bought prior the extension. Thats not a sign MS thinks it can get away with an unreliable product with no consequences. Its a sign that MS tried to get away with an abnormally unreliable console without a strong warranty and realize it couldn't without risking the 360 to outright failure.
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Nope they waited until after pictures was posted on the web showing a Dell notebook exploding during a japanese conference, Dell issuing a recall on batteries for as far back 2004, Dell outing Sony as the manufacturer of those defective batteries and then Apple and Lenovo issuing their own recall on batteries manufactured by Sony.
Sony is no different than MS when it comes to issue like RROD or malfunctioning batteries, most companies only act when an issue becomes a PR nightmare.
It is clear from the over 1 billion dollar write off that the failure rate is exceptionally high. No other console requires write-off or a total repair cost of this magnitude. No speculation is needed.
As I mentioned, MS can't issue a recall because the damage is too high. The consequences are: According to Takahashi, 1 million or 2 of 360 owners had to go through the cycle of replacements.
In MS's case, it was a known problem before the box was launched. They ignored and denied it for 1+ years. And finally bottled up the problem by recycling old boxes even though the refurbished units still have issues.
In the PS2 case, it was not a critical design issue and not as large scale as 360's (Look at their financials). The problem was also fixed once and for all.
So ? They denied it for 1+ years. The fans defended it fiercely. And speaking of lawsuits:
http://www.engadget.com/2005/12/05/lawsuit-claims-microsoft-knowingly-sold-defective-xbox-360s/ (Dec 5th 2005 -- before MS acted)
http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/10/first-xbox-360-class-action-suit-filed/ (July 10th 2007 -- after MS acted)
MS extended warranty to 3 years on July 5th. So a new lawsuit was filed after they acknowledged RROD, meaning someone felt that the fix was insufficient.
The problem is an extraordinary number of people suffered while MS knew about the problem way ahead of time. Those who did not have the problem should count themselves lucky, but should not defend the issue.
You're sidestepping the real issue. MS knew about the problem beforehand, the guys above may not. Do you think Dell, Sony and Apple want to sell exploding batteries knowingly ?
Regardless of who does it, as long as the manufacturer does it knowingly, they are no longer respected as a manufacturer.
Also do you see car manufacturers extending warranty to 3 years and then keep sending you faulty cars within those 3 years after they break ?
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I think the biggest difference from this RROD problem compared to other problem is whether MS know the XBOX360 was such an unreliable product before they release it or not. And to make it worse, they have some crappy warranty period before this whole RROD things surfaced. 90 days anyone? If MS know beforehand that their console is unreliable and they only put have 90 days warranty, that kind of behavior is really annoying.
And I said it before in my previous post... If I'm buying those supposedly faulty XBOX360, I would like it to break early so that MS could fix it before the warranty period ends. 3 years I believe aren't enough to cover such problem, unless they are absolutely sure that it wouldn't happen if the console could survive the 3 years warranty period. And I'm strictly talking RROD that were caused by these design decision and not RROD that may happen from other problem.
WAS exceptionally high... no longer true... this issue is dead for the most part if you have a retail system from within the past 12 months.
now as to how it happened and doing a post-mortem on it, I understand in this thread... but for those wanting to portray this issue as ongoing (not you Patsu) it is just FUD IMO.
You do?! I don't
Seems like a lot of bickering over something that doesn't amount to much now. We know the consoles were dodgy, MS responded with a 3 yr warranty after some pressure, as per usual for companies, and their solution is acceptible. Not sure what's to be gained by going around the houses here, after an absolute categorization of MS as 'worse than the others' or 'better than the others' which doesn't really mean much. I believe anyone's interpretations of MS's actions and motives is based very strongly on their bias towards/against the company, and arguments are at this point mostly subjective and impossible to convince to someone of the other persuasion.Actually only 500m was for the problems and the other 500m was for future problems and may or may not be spent. They basicly took it out just in case.
So the first one asks for ms to replace or recall the defective units , which considering that is from dec 5th 2005 they were doing as all xbox 360s had 6 month warrentys and that is not even a month after launch.
The second one is after they extended their warrenty and has nothing to do with the defective gpus . it has to do with disc scratching in which ms replaced discs and sent out pads to put on the dvd try.
Do you have any info on how many people actually suffered the problem. Extraordinary is a powerfull word. How many people actually had problems. We still don't know what the actual % is. If its 30% then your right that is alot. But many people who had multiple problems have recieved hardrives or games and others have recieved free xbox live time.
I don't agree. They can't issue a recall because there is really no rhyme or reason to which ones last and which ones don't. There is no reason my launch unit still works and my friends doesn't its just the luck of the draw and so if ms did do a recall not only would those of us with working units have to return them for another unit which would cause inconvince to us but ms would be refunding money on the majority of units which are working properly.
They thought the problem would be worked out and with the release of the falcon units it was fixed. Those getting problem refurbished units are a shrinking group of people , i rarely hear of that problem anymore . As for the ps2 and sony , it helps when you can charge people just to look at the defective system. I also think not being able to read discs is a critical issue with a platform.
I don't know , mabye Sony thought that amount of batteries that would actually explod were very minior and not a problem or that the situation that would cause them to explode was something so rare they shouldn't care. I would think that apple with the battery problem would have known about it from testing the unit before shipping it and they would know after a few months of use the battery would be no good. I'm sure that sony tested the ps2s and would know that the laser would go out of alignment and would not play certian discs. After all doesn't every company test their products and not just ms ?
Its called a lemon law. As for car recalls nissan continued to ship cars with a certian head light even though it was possible to steal the headlights without opening the hood of the car thus making the cars easy prey for those who wanted the $200 head lights. Even after they issued the recall they continued to sell cars that had the problem. Apple continues to sell the exploding nanos
http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/19/japan-investigates-exploding-first-generation-ipod-nanos-again/
these things actually catch fire and can harm people and yet apple hasn't issued a recall dispite knowing the problem exists.
Regardless , I still await a solution to you on what MS should have done.
Source? There is no such thing as "just in case". They knew how many of the problematic consoles were going to be out there and the failure rate. They can estimate the dollars needed very accurately to repair them over the lifetime of the 360. This wasn't good will or charity, this was damage control to save a brand image.
It's budgeted for the entire problem. Naturally, they have to allocate enough money for what's in the channel.
The first one accused MS for knowingly selling faulty products. The second complained about known 360 problems not covered by the 3 year warranty.
Heh... I don't have to go over this one. Google for yourself. There are several estimates. Dean Takahashi placed it at 1 or 2 million people in early 2008.
Even hypothetically MS does a recall, you can choose not to send it back if you are confident your unit will last. I am sure MS would be happy. For people who had the problem, they send it back once.
The problem is MS knowingly sold faulty boxes to consumers and pretend the problem didn't exist for 1+ year.
Yes, you don't know. To suggest a reputable company would sell products that kill people is purely your imagination. If Apple knew the batteries would explode, I am sure they wouldn't sell it (or will issue a recall) because of the threat of lawsuits and damaged reputation.
http://www.deliton.org/2008/08/apple-ipod-nano-japanese-unit-to-recall-batteries/
Why should I suggest a solution for MS ?
It was an audio interview with moore. I have to search for it but he stated that the extra 500m was for any problems it would cover the costs of the rrod moving foward with future expenses. Thus since it wasn't spent at the time not all of it may be spent. Now of course if the new systems stop RROD'ing then ms may have left over money from that second pool of 500m. How much is unknown.
Did you read what the first one wanted in compensation ? That plantifis wanted the systems replaced or recalled ? Were they not replaced ?
As for the second one. There is still much debat over the problem with strached discs and exactly what causes it.
Aside from that everything on the unit is covered with a 1 year warrenty. If they have a unit scratching discs and did not call in for a warrenty repair then its their fault. if they went past the warrenty time frame then why is ms responsible.
So there are no offical numbers is what your saying to me and once again it can be as low as 10% or as high as 33% that has been thrown around. Condering the average defective rate in ce products is 3-5% your looking at as little as double the normal failure rate
Or perhaps they can just issue free repairs for anyone who encounters the problem for 3 years. Oh wait a second........
And your saying thats not a problem with other companys. Seriously you have yet to tell me what you want.
Apple knows and they didn't do anything until japan steped in twice. I notice that no goverment had to set up an investigation into the xbox 360 to get ms to offer a warrenty.
You guys are the ones that are still not satisfied with the steps ms has taken. Basicly you guys just want to complain over and over again about the issue and that is basicly trolling.
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