Supposed MS insider discusses RRoD errors, Falcon at 10% failure rate?

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

So what a sec...you're telling me I bought a lemon because my console which I purchased in Nov 2005 (113 weeks ago) was not working for a period of 4 weeks?

The amount of gaming I've gotten out of it, literally hundreds of hours, makes the purchase price an absolute bargain of a value, compared to other forms of recreation.

It shouldn't have been out of action at all. And you're lucky if it was only four weeks and one exchange instead of the multiples that other people have experienced.

Regardless of what you consider to be good value, you can see from the linked article above that the Xbox360 has several design flaws, to the extent that MS expects them all to fail at some point in the future. That's not just bad Q&A, that's bad product design methodology right at the ground level while the product was being put together.

In my book any fatally flawed product that completely fails due to poor design and testing is a lemon, and the very high levels of failure pretty much prove that. Is MS ever going to make money off the Xbox360 because of this?

 

[scooby_dooby]

In my book any fatally flawed product that completely fails due to poor design and testing is a lemon, and the very high levels of failure pretty much prove that. Is MS ever going to make money off the Xbox360 because of this?

To me, a lemon is all about value. If I get my money's worth, it's not a lemon. If I pay good money, and get ripped off, I bought a lemon.

It shouldn't have been out of action at all.

This isn't realistic. Things fail all the time, all CE products fail. I can't realistically expect that something will never fail.

A lemon, would be like my Sister who bought a $300 Canon Camera, and 1 week after the 1yr warrantee expires, it simply dies. Canon could care less, she cannot get it repaired for a reasonable price, and she is simply out of pocket $300 with no Camera.

Now that's a lemon.

Losing a console for 4 weeks, and having it replaced free of charge, is not.

MS expects them all to fail at some point in the future.

By MS you mean: anonymous ex-MS employee.

And really, don't all CE products fail at some point in the future? Nothing lasts forever, so again this seems a little unrealistic. If the consoles last for 5 years, that's really their expected lifespan, anything beyond that is a bonus.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

And really, don't all CE products fail at some point in the future? Nothing lasts forever, so again this seems a little unrealistic. If the consoles last for 5 years, that's really their expected lifespan, anything beyond that is a bonus.

MS Extending warranties and putting a billion aside for future repairs shows what MS thinks regardless of your own personal opinions on "value" and your luck with your system only failing once (so far). Says it all really.

 

[slider]

This isn't realistic. Things fail all the time, all CE products fail. I can't realistically expect that something will never fail.

Nothing lasts forever. I think the issue that has grabbed some people's attention is the rate of failure. Until we get accurate figures on what the failure rate is (we haven't had anything like this have we?) we could talk this to death.

But there's certainly been enough, let's call it circumstantial, evidence for the issue to make it onto CNN and so on.

And the fact that MS set aside a large chunk of money related to "RROD" means something too, (was it really a $1billion or did I just make that up?).

I could be wrong on this but I certainly can't think of anything in the CE space that has had similar problems. This is what happens when you're near or at the top of the tree.

As I said in an earlier post, some people, me included, have been lucky, or should I say normal, and others haven't been. I guess the lucky ones are always going to wonder what the fuss is about.

About BZB's other point (poorly engineered products being released), again I think that's a dangerous precedent. The close cousin is the PC space I suppose. Except there you don't have the anamoly of only having one hardware provider.

 

[AlNom]

was it really a $1billion or did I just make that up?

yup, $1.057B to be a little more precise. Who knows how they came up with that figure.

 

[scooby_dooby]

MS Extending warranties and putting a billion aside for future repairs shows what MS thinks regardless of your own personal opinions on "value" and your luck with your system only failing once (so far). Says it all really.

It says they have a problem and they recognize it.

It doesn't mean every console is going to fail as you're asserting.

And actually, when my console went down, I bought another at Costco, which I promptly returned once my unit came back. So, I really did not care all that much...if it goes down again, so what?

It's not going to cost me anything, and they are extremely quick.

Unlike the numerous computer parts I've had fail, and had to pay for shipping out of my pocket, and wait 8+ weeks to recieve a replacement. That's far more annoying as a consumer, than the situation with the 360.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

It says they have a problem and they recognize it.

It doesn't mean every console is going to fail as you're asserting.

Have you read the article at the start of this thread? That's where it's asserted that all consoles are likely to fail long before they should. You should read the comments after the article too - a lot of people backing up the multiple failures and returns (along with everywhere else on the internet and MS owning up to it months back).

Q: So what do you think the real failure rate of the Xbox 360 is? Some have estimated it as high as 30%. I got my Xbox in early 2007 and so far so good but what do you think the chance is that it's going to die on me one day.

It's around 30%, and all will probably fail early. This quarter they are expecting 1 M failures, most of those Xenons. Some of those are repeat failures. Life expectancy is all over the map because the design has very little margin for most of the important parameters. That means it's not a fault tolerant design. So a good unit may last a couple of years, while a bad unit can fail in hours. I have a launch unit and have not had a single problem with it. And it's used a lot. But I don't know anyone else with a 360 that hasn't broken, except you now. There's no way to tell when yours might die. But the cooler you can keep it, the longer it will probably last. So stand it up, keep it in free air, etc.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Yes I've read the article, but it's still nothing more than an anonymous person, making conjecture.

"Most will probably fail early" - That's pure conjecture, and what exactly is early? 5 years? 4 years?

And sorry...internet comments are about the lowest form of discussion that can be had. I'm really surprised that an article about RROD has attracted many people who've experience RROD's...go figure.

We all know there's a major issue with reliability, I'm not going to argue with that. My own console failed after all.

But your statement seems to imply that all 360 owners are somewhat delusional if they don't think they've gotten a lemon. That's what I don't agree with. A lemon implies you got ripped off, and I certainly got my money's worth, despite having a failed console, as did the 70%+ of owners who are still on their first console.

 

[Pete]

And actually, when my console went down, I bought another at Costco, which I promptly returned once my unit came back.

So, I really did not care all that much...if it goes down again, so what?

It's not going to cost me anything, and they are extremely quick.

Not quick enough for you, apparently, since you let Costco and its other customers absorb some of that cost.

Sorry for the partially OT and fully emotional response, but abusing a return policy and excusing RMA delays b/c you can take advantage of another company doesn't seem like much of a defense of the 360. MS should be the one providing loaner units, not some other company that's out some money on a product with minimal margins to begin with.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Yes I've read the article, but it's still nothing more than an anonymous person, making conjecture.

"Most will probably fail early" - That's pure conjecture, and what exactly is early? 5 years? 4 years?

And sorry...internet comments are about the lowest form of discussion that can be had. I'm really surprised that an article about RROD has attracted many people who've experience RROD's...go figure.

Chicken or egg. There wouldn't be this uproar and these articles if it wasn't a problem. Once again, I point to Microsoft's own statements and a billion dollars put aside for failures.

We all know there's a major issue with reliability, I'm not going to argue with that. My own console failed after all.

"Major issue with reliability". The way you brush it aside makes it sound almost desirable.

But your statement seems to imply that all 360 owners are somewhat delusional if they don't think they've gotten a lemon. That's what I don't agree with. A lemon implies you got ripped off, and I certainly got my money's worth, despite having a failed console, as did the 70%+ of owners who are still on their first console.

I guess you've set the bar pretty low on what's acceptable customer service and general fitness for purpose of a product. Just goes to show what I was saying earlier about emotional investment and why people will accept anything when it comes to the console they've decided to side with.

If something has major design faults, and a third of them fail completely, that's a lemon. Just because you've been lucky so far, it doesn't mean the design is good, and thus "not lemony".

 

[scooby_dooby]

I guess you've set the bar pretty low on what's acceptable customer service and general fitness for purpose of a product.

Replace my product, free of charge, in a quick timeframe...and I'm a pretty happy guy. As are most consumers I would think. A 3 yr, no-charge warrantee is not exactly what I would call a low-bar.

And I'm not siding withing any console, I own a 360, bought a Wii for my gf and play it all the time, and I will pick up a PS3 the second it hits $299.

I just find it comical that anyone could refer to the $500 CAD I paid for the 360, considering the 100's of hours I used it, and call it a lemon. You gotta be kidding me...

Maybe the angle you're missing, is the awesome game library 360 owners have been treated to in the first 24 months of owning the console. It's hard to feel shafted, when you've just gone through one of the best periods of gaming ever.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Replace my product, free of charge, in a quick timeframe...and I'm a pretty happy guy.

Apparently not then, as Costco's got screwed by you because of this failure.

As are most consumers I would think.

A 3 yr, no-charge warrantee is not exactly what I would call a low-bar.

Wasn't that recently extended along with the billion dollar fix fund?

And I'm not siding withing any console, I own a 360, bought a Wii for my gf and play it all the time, and I will pick up a PS3 the second it hits $299.

I'm saying I find it laughable, that anyone could refer to the $500 CAD I paid for the 360, considering the 100's of hours I used it, and call it a lemon. You gotta be kidding me...

You seem to be talking specifically about your one unit. This article and this thread is about the failures of the product as a whole. It's bad design philosophy and design weaknesses is what makes it a lemon, not whether you were lucky enough to get a "good one" that's only failed once.

 

[....]

Losing a console for 4 weeks, and having it replaced free of charge, is not.

How many times do they do that?

The refurbished early units are known to fail early too.

If the anon guy is right and the first couple of million fail, and they can't be fixed properly(refurbished units noted as failing too.), and are going to be kept in the consumer channel. This could turn out ugly.

 

[scooby_dooby]

How many times do they do that?

The refurbished early units are known to fail early too.

I personally got a new one back, as did the only other person I know who had one fail. I can't speak to the percentage that are receiving refurb units. It's definately a penny wise, pound foolish practice that MS should stop.

 

[....]

I personally got a new one back, as did the only other person I know who had one fail. I can't speak to the percentage that are receiving refurb units. It's definately a penny wise, pound foolish practice that MS should stop.

How do you know it was new? Date alone is highly suggestive but not conclusive.

Also, if the article is correct and several million xboxes are likely to fai early(if it is true microsoft knows it.). It definitely is not affordable to replace'em all.

 

[PARANOiA]

It's bad design philosophy and design weaknesses is what makes it a lemon, not whether you were lucky enough to get a "good one" that's only failed once.

BZB, I think you need to understand that people aren't arguing whether the design was solid or not. It's obviously not. It's bad they fail, it's good MS stepped up and took it on the, err, balance sheet. Obviously this is deterring new customers to an extent, too, and that in my mind is a good thing - hopefully MS (and all console makers of course) will learn that saving a penny early on may cost them a buck down the road.

I think the point some - including me - are making is that it sucks that they break, however the machine has provided a very good product that's definitely earned its keep in my hours-per-dollar-spent measurement. It's just part of the choice that other users will have to make when thinking about whether they want to "jump in" as MS would have it.

And like I said earlier, this is not something entirely limited to the 360. PS1 has massive issues meaning it is very unlikely a launch machine survived to the end of the console life.

I also pointed out earlier than Gen 1 Ipods (and a few later gens too IIRC) all had failed batteries at about the 12-14 month mark and needed to be sent for repair at the customer's expense. They were launched in late 2001... I don't think there's too many of them floating around these days. So MS certainly got some (well-deserved) bad press but it's odd that someone like Apple - when my Ipod cost about the same as my 360! - can get away with it without recourse. That's life I guess.

 

[Daozang]

What if you were told that the product you are buying has a 3 year life expentancy and you'll have to either pay for it to be repaired or buy a new one? Because in my oppinion that should be on the box. Would you buy it then?
The way I see it, 3 years is what you get.

Look, minus the noise, the 360 does what it's supposed to be doing great. The games are great and the multimedia functions are good. But I'm not sure I would have bought it had I known that it will break down every 10 to 12 months.

I have bought 2 360s. One for me and one for a good friend of mine as a wedding gift. Both have failled. My friends once and mine twice. I have also recomended it to a few people from work and they bought it too. That last part is the one I regret the most.

As for the fact that MS extended their warranty and we should be thankfull, it is the least they could do. Again in my oppinion, I'm certain, given the way they handled the situation, that their first goal was to let it slide and deny any problem ever excisted. In the end, they and their products cannot be trusted, at least in my book.
You won't see me buying a launch unit from MS next gen...

 

[scooby_dooby]

You seem to be talking specifically about your one unit. This article and this thread is about the failures of the product as a whole. It's bad design philosophy and design weaknesses is what makes it a lemon, not whether you were lucky enough to get a "good one" that's only failed once.

I'm fully aware what the article and thread are about, it's this statement that is ridiculous: "while the customer is trapped by ... his uwillingness to admit he was conned into buying a lemon."

'Conned' into buying a lemon? What a ridiculous statement. Exagerate a little more please...

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I'm fully aware what the article and thread are about, it's this statement that is ridiculous: "while the customer is trapped by the investment in software/games and his uwillingness to admit he was conned into buying a lemon."

'Conned' into buying a lemon? What a ridiculous statement.

<sigh> You can ignore everything else I said in my initial postings, but it's pretty obvious from the article that MS knew they had problem as they were designing the Xbox360. Still they shoved a problematic product out the door, knowing there would be high failure rates, and hoping to just make the customers live with it and fix it later. Known faults, known very high failures, known total failures necessitating weeks without the product, sometimes multiple times. If that's not a lemon, and if that's not a company knowingly sending out faulty product, then I nothing is.

You wouldn't accept that kind of failure rate from almost any other type of product, and you've been one of the lucky ones with only one failure. Once again, you just have to look at Microsoft's own statements and their billion dollar repair fund to see even they don't share your optimistic viewpoint.

You pretty much prove my point that regardless of how many problems that would be considered unacceptable in other products, people will accept it in a console because they have a financial and emotional investment, and would rather believe that black is white than admit their beloved console is bugged beyond belief. You don't get that "tribal" investment in a refrigerator or a DVD player that is made by a dozen companies, but you do for the console that you spend money on content that can only be used there, and where you make a choice to join one of the warring tribes or the other.

 

[scooby_dooby]

You wouldn't accept that kind of failure rate from almost any other type of product, and you've been one of the lucky ones with only one failure.

You keep saying this but it's such a load of nonsense.

Your assertion being that the majority of 360 users have experience multiple failures.

Truth is, you have no clue what the percentage of users that are having multiple failures are...yet somehow I'm a 'lucky' one because I had only one failure? I would argue that the overwhelming majority of owners are also in this 'lucky' category.

For all you know 95% of 360 owners never experience more than one failure. Right? So quit with the exagerations.

All we know if the rate of failure on the INITIAL 360's was 30%, since then they have introduced better cooling methods and stricter QC, so you have no idea what the rate of repeat failures is OR what the rate of failure is on the 5million units purchased in the US this year.

And I'm not ignoring everything else you're saying, you keep repeating the same things, things which I've already agreed with. I agree they made a mistake, they pushed an unreliable product into the market, nobody is denying that...yet you continue to argue as if we are.

As people are trying to point out to you, for the vast majority of users, who've had 1 failure or less, the value users have gotten from the box outweighs the small annoyance caused by having a failure, and it's ridiculous for YOU to tell those users they have a lemon.

A lemon is a product that fails, and is defective, repeatedly. So, if someone returns their 360 4 times, and it keeps failing, then you can call that a lemon. Sure. But you gotta also have a little perspective, and realize that is probably 1-2% of the userbase.