*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion

[joker454]

It probably wouldn't do a lot of good for its key franchises which remain exclusives, but it wouldn't hurt and it would add value to make me more receptive to upgrading earlier on.

Key franchises can still stay exclusive for a while, many would at first simply due to the pc piracy issue. But they could be released later. Basically it could go down something like this:

- You buy your shiny new Durango, log in with your Microsoft id and your all configured. All your friends, contacts, etc all transfer over automatically and you go to the same familiar Windows app store.

- When you go to the Windows app store it will show apps compatible with your hardware. So on an arm Windows device you would not see x86 apps, on an x86 device you wouldn't see apps that are Durango only, etc. Ideally simpler apps would all work on Durango, so your existing Win 8 app purchases would work on Durango as is. That will let you leverage many of your existing purchases right away on Durango with no more money spent. Right now we can already flag our Windows 8 apps as supporting x86, arm or both. Over time maybe they will add Durango to that mix, so maybe we just have to recompile our apps, submit a new binary to the store and presto they will also work on Durango.

- A new Gears of War comes out, and it's Durango only for the first year. When you go to the Windows store on Durango, Gears Of War appears as a possible purchase since it supports your hardware. When you go to the Windows store on other hardware like arm or x86 based, you don't see GOW. You buy it via the Durango store and play it.

- A year later GOW gets ported to x86 Windows and now appears on the x86 Windows store. Since the hardware is so similar, this isn't uber hard to do. You go to the Windows store on your x86 machines like laptop, desktop or whatever and now see GOW there and you go ahead and install it. Since you use the same Microsoft id on all your devices you don't have to buy it again, it knows you have a license for it. So you down load it and play.

- You see all your achievements are there, of course because all the devices are XBLive compatible. All your save games are there also because all saves happen in the cloud. So now you can play GOW on your x86 Windows devices with the same achievements and save games.

That's the kind of unified setup that I'm envisioning. Everything is tied together, so all your friends, contacts, achievements, game saves, etc all automatically transition to any Windows device based on your Microsoft id. Game can still be made exclusive for a period of time, as stated this is likely to happen purely due to pc piracy. But nothing stops these same games from transitioning to other devices over time. The Windows store knows what type of device you are accessing it from, so it knows to deliver you an x86 binary, arm binary, Durango binary or whatever, and it also knows if you have bought the item or not. This way it's all seamless, you keep your games forever, talk with all your friends anywhere on any device, you don't have to constantly rebuy stuff, and consoles still can get that window of exclusivity.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sure, that's great, but it's a software platform you're talking about rather than BC, and doesn't help with Sony or Nintendo exclusives.

 

[Arwin]

Having the game on PC solve none of my problem because I don't own one anymore. I expect the console online gaming experience will indeed improve over time.

I also don't need Skype on my console. It's there on Vita but I never used it. I may want FaceTime though for calling my wife.

Ultimately, I think if they centralize thir online experience on Gaikai, it should be easier to move the entire experience to and across multiple platforms. PCs and Macs can be part of the experience too.

You are making the funniest comments about Apple software these days. If you care at all about using more than just Apple devices then Skype is infinitely more useful than anything locked down to Apple platforms. We have an iPad and 2 iPhones, and lots of friends and relatives do too, but I nevertheless always use Skype with them, as it works on just about anything. Heck, I sometimes use the iPad and Vita together as a babycam, when my son is having a bath and we want to work upstairs, its pretty amazing.

 

[joker454]

Sure, that's great, but it's a software platform you're talking about rather than BC, and doesn't help with Sony or Nintendo exclusives.

It's a software platform that also provides BC. If Durango 2 comes out and for whatever reason doesn't play Durango 1 software, then you can still use your old digital purchases on your other Windows devices. So if you still want to fire up GOW and it's been ported to x86 and arm, then keep playing it on those devices as long as you want. Durango 2 may not play it, but your x86 tablet will play it. You buy a new Windows device 5 years from now, you log into it with your Windows id and install all your x86 digital purchases. So you get BC this way and consoles can still get their exclusive games. This way you can also buy digital content without fear of it becoming worthless since you aren't buying a binary, you're buying the license to download it on all supported hardware.

As for Sony and Nintendo, we'll I've been saying for sometime now that long term they are both screwed unless they partner with someone. Microsoft is in a great position though to make this all happen, and I think they will kind of have to with other threats looming so large. They will have to do this as well probably for Windows Phone because lets face it, most people will not bother porting anything to that platform unless its almost 100% painless do port from an existing Windows 8 app. If they can tie everything together then it's another bullet point for Windows Phone.

 

[patsu]

You are making the funniest comments about Apple software these days. If you care at all about using more than just Apple devices then Skype is infinitely more useful than anything locked down to Apple platforms. We have an iPad and 2 iPhones, and lots of friends and relatives do too, but I nevertheless always use Skype with them, as it works on just about anything. Heck, I sometimes use the iPad and Vita together as a babycam, when my son is having a bath and we want to work upstairs, its pretty amazing.

^_^

It's based on past usage pattern. But I do sense an opportunity there since every Android maker avoids Apple for various reasons. If you recall, NetFlix embraced every Blu-ray players to stay ahead of other streaming services in the early days. I don't think Playstation and Apple TV are in direct competition. There are overlaps but because of how Sony play their Playstation cards so far, they are pretty different.

I don't use video conferencing because it eats up bandwidth in my dataplan. If I do, it's because my kid asks for it from the other end in the middle of a call.

I really don't use Skype on my Vita. I do use GoogleTalk and Whatsapp on my iPad. These are mostly apps that my friends "force" me to install. I have no idea why they don't ask for my Skype id.

 

[James Car]

As predicted by some in this very thread, having BC isn't a game changer, but not having it makes switching platforms an even easier proposition.

Note the mass exodus of xbox gamers in our polls and to be witnessed later this year in sales.

It isn't the key factor in my decision to jump to Sony, but it sure makes the entire proposition easier to make.

Had MS offered BC (either whole chip, emulated, or via scaling of xb360 architecture), it would have given me pause. Especially if it offered cross generation multiplayer.

As is, ____ it. I lose nothing but a meaningless "gamerscore".

What is it worth to MS (Shifty's all important dollar figure breakdown)?

Difficult to isolate without hard data, but I can tell you that this one ingredient of the many ingredients that make up the poor core-gamer experience* of xbone will lead to a good chunk of userbase erosion which will likely cost MS upwards of $500M annually (half their userbase).

* mod edit: Feel free to adapt to someone more representative yet appropriate.

 

[Phil]

Just to give my view on things...

I have pre-ordered a PS4, though I am less keen to actually replace it with my PS3. I only have limited space, so I will only use one console at a time.

I'm a bit disappointed about no backwards-compatibility in PS4. I have lots of games on PS3 (about 30 on disk and 15 through PSN) and there are quite a few games that I have not completed yet - or trophies that I would like to complete. There are also quite a few PSN title that I see as long-time classics. After one year of break, I just recently started playing Wipeout again.

It hurts that these titles will not work on PS4. I can understand the disk games to a certain degree, but I'm quite disappointed that while my username and ID are platform independent, my game purchases are not. Logical in a technical sense, but not from a business/investment perspective.

Also, I don't see the jump in graphics to be that large. So there's less incentive to actually "upgrade" on day one. For this reason, I have actually considered cancelling my pre-order until there are more games out, that would make the jump onto a new system worthwile. Also, in the transitioning phase, a lot of people will still be playing online-games. If I switch to PS4, I won't be able to join my friends playing the latest CoD online on the PS3. So I would have to switch between these two consoles if I wanted both experiences.

It would have been nice to upgrade, have the new controllers, but still be able to play the old games while one by one transition to the new generation as well.

Not having backwards-compatibility just makes it more complicated in a world where players are more and more connected through online-play. That didn't used to be the case on the older consoles where we didn't have online-play and were more limited to single-user experiences.

 

[James Car]

...
Not having backwards-compatibility just makes it more complicated in a world where players are more and more connected through online-play. That didn't used to be the case on the older consoles where we didn't have online-play and were more limited to single-user experiences.

For this reason, it makes the switch to ps4 easier for me. The friends list for halo4 etc is a moot point if I can't game with them on the new xbox.

This leaves the choice open then for which direction to go. From there, it is also open for Sony and MS to compete on other factors than game library and friend lists. (simple enough to move a friends list: "hey I'm getting ps4 later this year, you jumping ship with me or what?")

From here, Sony has done a masterful job at courting core gamers such as myself. More powerful hardware, no mandatory kinect staring me in the face, and cheaper price to boot (not to mention, no hint of future restrictions of crazy drm and check-in schemes).

 

[AzBat]

Lack of backward compatibility really depressed me. I think I could have stomached it more had they gone with that Xbox Mini rumor(still might be technically possible) or they supported something as simple as supporting all Xbox Live Indie Games or the few XBLA arcade titles written in XNA. Not only did they not do that but it looks like you can't game/party chat across platforms. That's really bad. Now they haven't said if you still can do private text/voice/video chats. So that might still be possible, but I'm not real optimistic. So far it only supports Friends Lists, Achivements/Gamerscore & your media purchases. That's not a lot to hold people to your platform. I think MS grossly underestimated the importance of backward compatibility & cross platform interaction.

Tommy McClain

 

[Rangers]

It's weird to me how 95% of BC bitching only comes from Xbox gamers.

I think it's a secret plot to make Xbox less powerful.

Anyways personally I am super glad in no BC. It absolutely destroys systems designs. No way around that. Look at the Wii U. You cant cram 90 watts of old inefficient heat in a new system anywhere and have it not be the worst design ever.

Even as stupid as MS is, they didn't do it LOL, that should tell you all you need to know.

For people like Azbat, I wouldn't be averse to some kind of modular solution they pay for, I suppose, as long as it has zero bearing on the new system's design.

 

[AzBat]

It's weird to me how 95% of BC bitching only comes from Xbox gamers.

I think it's a secret plot to make Xbox less powerful.

I have a shitload of digital purchases, like to chit chat with a lot of my friends & I don't want 2 boxes. I guess PS3 owners don't buy as many digital games, don't chit chat with their friends & don't mind 2 boxes?

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

For me it's because I know Cell is hard to emulate. There is a rumor about Gaikai serving PS3 b/c games, but I'll wait and see.

I get a lot of games from PS+. Don't have time to complete them.

For now, I play more on Vita and iOS.

 

[Cyan]

It's nice someone revived this topic because it is important. I am going to keep my Xbox 360 just because I want to play "old" true classics like RDR, Skyrim, Alaskan Adventures.., and Call of Juarez.

Microsoft should re-consider BC for Xbox. I'd like to play are Forza 1, Halo 2 and Ninja Gaiden. (I have two of those game on Games on Demand)

Since the original Xbox was just a x86 PC, I think emulating the original Xbox on the Xbox One is truly a piece of cake!

 

[Brad Grenz]

I have a shitload of digital purchases, like to chit chat with a lot of my friends & I don't want 2 boxes. I guess PS3 owners don't buy as many digital games, don't chit chat with their friends & don't mind 2 boxes?

We're all going to use our old PS3s as Blu-ray players in a second room. Since it will still be in service we can play our old games whenever we want.

 

[thatdude90210]

So what's the latest on whether PS4 would use Gaikai for PS3 games? Because I'm trying to resist the urge to get a PS3 just to play Last of us. I already pre ordered a PS4 and it's kinda hard to justify getting a PS3 at this point.

 

[Brad Grenz]

They said they were rolling out Gaikai for PS3 games on PS4 in 2014 at E3. US first. No more details than that.

 

[xexuxjy]

Yeah, I'm really disapointed in lack of BC on the 360, I have a load of XBLA games which I still like to play from time to time. I thought there were rumours of a possible BC add-on box ? Lack of XNA or replacement really irritating as well (though rumours say something may be announced at build today) As it is I've put a pre-order deposit (yay tesco vouchers!) on both the ps4 and XB1, though for the life of me I'm not sure why as I can't see anything appealing on the XB1 except possibly Project Spark. PS4 in a similar situation , though I am interested in Knack and if they offered some form of gaikai type BC it would be a good opporunity for me to play some of the PS3 games I liked the look of.

ho hum.

 

[BoardBonobo]

So what's the latest on whether PS4 would use Gaikai for PS3 games? Because I'm trying to resist the urge to get a PS3 just to play Last of us. I already pre ordered a PS4 and it's kinda hard to justify getting a PS3 at this point.

We should start the twitter campaign #lastofuson4 now, so that they can get a slightly shinier version ready for PS4 launch...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

They may already have it, seeing as the PS4 engine is reportedly the PS3 engine. It'd be an easy way to get another PS4 title, and will milk the franchise for those double dipping.

 

[James Car]

It's weird to me how 95% of BC bitching only comes from Xbox gamers...

Two things:

1) The core architecture of xb360 is easier/simpler to emulate. 3 cores of “weak” ppc right? That plus an amd designed unified 48 pipe gpu and embedded ram.

2) According to MS, the new architecture is supposed to be 10x more powerful with new efficiencies blablabla, right? Plus the new architecture is x86 and super easy to code for right?

BC of an old, ancient, and weak system like xb360 should be a cake walk for MS.

As for why PS owners aren’t complaining, I’m pretty sure the majority made peace with cell’s death years ago. Those that did not, were informed by those in the know that cell had in fact died and would not be resurrected in ps4, so they’ve had time to mourn I suppose.

(In case you were wondering, much of the above regarding power differences between xb360 and xbone were remarks to prove a point.)



As a fellow xbox gamer, I would have much rather seen MS throw in a 12 core (24 thread) 3.2GHz xenon (it’s only a 4x increase in transistors) connected to a high bandwidth 64-128mb EDRAM (not 6T SRAM) (also accessible by the GPU for GPGPU).

No BC issues, and I’m quite sure the 8 core 1.6GHz jaguar would not be able to keep up with such a configuration.