*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion

Blu-ray had issues that affected production and therefore PS3's launch but they couldn't have launched much earlier because of RSX and the fact that the OS obviously wasn't ready. Basics like background downloading wasn't even a thing until March 2007. So let's not be hyperbolic and blame everything on Blu-ray. This is patently untrue and is well documented. Of course if you want to link to what you believe are more accurate accounts for reputable and knowledgable sources, feel free. How about some reputable sources to backup your opinion?
Ars Technica? BBC? The PS3 issues were BluRay related. We all know that, not because the internet is full of lies but because it was reported by the information networks from the executives at Sony. RSX was never blamed for delays and your suggestion is the first I've ever heard.
 
I took his descriptions to mean that on the x360 they needed to customize the shim (code layer) pretty much on a per title basis.

His statement makes no sense but then the specific implementation of original Xbox emulation on 360 was unknown. If what he says is correct, he's essentially saying that the 360 emulation solution was less emulation and more re-writing core game API calls on a per-game basis.

That in itself would be hugely impressive.
 
Ars Technica? BBC? The PS3 issues were BluRay related. We all know that, not because the internet is full of lies but because it was reported by the information networks from the executives at Sony. RSX was never blamed for delays and your suggestion is the first I've ever heard.

Maybe you missed where I said "Blu-ray had issues that affected production and therefore PS3's launch but they couldn't have launched much earlier because of RSX and the fact that the OS obviously wasn't ready.

My position is the Blu-ray problems were greatly overblown for a games console. Let's take the first delay which was due to lack of agreement on the copy protection. This wasn't an insurmountable problem and would only impact movies which didn't exist because of the lack of protection standard. So in fact, not really a problem. It was something that was firmware updatable. The second thing (mentioned my DrEvil) was HDMI 1.3. This was another software issue that also wasn't an insurmountable problem. The hardware was ready, the HMDI 1.3 standard was waiting ratification. In both cases Sony would have shipped a games console and updates the firmware later. HDMI was designed with this in mind from the outset with only hardware functionality (e.g. bus frequencies) being dependant on specific hardware implementations.

But Sony were seemingly behind schedule before the Blu-ray issues hit. You state they didn't blame Nvidia and I can't see they would? Firstly this is not how most Japanese companies do business, secondly Nvidia was only the designer of RSX with fabrication being Sony's problem. At the time [of Nvidia's CFO's statement] Sony were still on track for a Spring 2006 launch but not having actual production sample silicon at any level nine months (at most) before launch is horribly behind. Sony would have had no production sampling silicon at any level which means developers were working on highly abstracted dev systems with hardware representative of target hardware but with no guarantee of actual specifications which change as production kinks are addressed. Remember how PS4 started out with 192Gb/sec GDDR5 specification and this dropped quite late to 176Gb/sec GDDR5?

Finally there was the OS. Let's be frank, it was shit when it launched in Europe and that's after four months work - the experience Japanese and US gamers had to endure would awful. And it took a good six months before it really settled.

Blu-ray caused delays but these seem to be the least of Sony's problem. Had the Blu-ray standards issues not occurred, what kind of state would PS3 have been in for launch for Spring 2006?
 
Oh but we have to talk about how BC will work if MS decides to remove their adorable bluray drive next gen.

Maybe next gen will need to have a bluray drive to allow true hardware BC.
 
Oh but we have to talk about how BC will work if MS decides to remove their adorable bluray drive next gen.

Maybe next gen will need to have a bluray drive to allow true hardware BC.

Only if you use physical disc. I have yet to insert any physical disc media into my xbox one. All items played there are digital items. So a nextgen xbox two would never need a bluray drive for me to play xbox one titles.
 
Oh but we have to talk about how BC will work if MS decides to remove their adorable bluray drive next gen.

Maybe next gen will need to have a bluray drive to allow true hardware BC.

You simply insert your 360 disc into your xb1 and plug that into the xb2 using the hdmi in and then wait for the xb2 to download a new image of the title.

In a couple of gens you will be able to go:

"Activate HDMI interlock! Dynotherms connected! Infracells up! Mega thrusters are go! LET'S GO XBOX FORCE!..Form feet and legs! Form arms and body! And, I'll form the head!"

See MS thinks of everything.
 
Last edited:
You simply insert your 360 disc into your xb1 and plug that into the xb2 using the hdmi in and then wait for the xb2 to download a new image of the title.
And then you don't need to connect the XB1 anymore once you "converted" all your games? That method would risk open piracy, you could resell your disc used. Or if there's some invalidation happening, a used game wouldn't work if the seller already activated it. So this is a choice between DRM hell and piracy. A true hardware BC with a drive doesn't have this problem.

BTW, how does the BC on XB1 avoid this? I suppose the user have to insert the 360 disc to play the downloaded XB1 version?

Food for toughts, current gen console game sales are only 25% digital. IHS research firm expects it will grow to 34% digital in 2017 (for PS4/XB1). So most gamers next gen who want BC will want to use the discs they purchased. Those who live in SF, LA and Seattle will be fine with full digital I guess. :runaway:
 
And then you don't need to connect the XB1 anymore once you "converted" all your games? That method would risk open piracy, you could resell your disc used. Or if there's some invalidation happening, a used game wouldn't work if the seller already activated it. So this is a choice between DRM hell and piracy. A true hardware BC with a drive doesn't have this problem.

BTW, how does the BC on XB1 avoid this? I suppose the user have to insert the 360 disc to play the downloaded XB1 version?

Food for toughts, current gen console game sales are only 25% digital. IHS research firm expects it will grow to 34% digital in 2017 (for PS4/XB1). So most gamers next gen who want BC will want to use the discs they purchased. Those who live in SF, LA and Seattle will be fine with full digital I guess. :runaway:

I was just joking. Its seem the perfect time to pull out the Voltron reference. I imagine MS could release an external drive for those that really desire it.

For those like Brit and me, a driveless console won't present an obstacle to BC as we all digital anyways.
 
If you need to use physical disc for a nextgen console for bc, you simply let the user plug in a usb3 bluray drive. I do not think there is quite the extensive bluray drive firmware on the xbox one as there was on the x360 dvd drive. But I could be mistaken.


Oh, and even internet in a HellMouth is fine, 150mbit and 2 TeraBytes monthly quota in May 2015.
 
BTW, how does the BC on XB1 avoid this? I suppose the user have to insert the 360 disc to play the downloaded XB1 version?

Yes, If you did no purchase the digital version of the game & only have a disc, then yes, you need the disc to play, even though it's already downloaded.

For those like Brit and me, a driveless console won't present an obstacle to BC as we all digital anyways.

Same here. No no disc games in my library either. I'm already approaching 45 digital games. A lot of them are free to play or Games with Gold games, but do have 8 or so that I purchased outright. My digital collection on 360 is way probably 4 times bigger(free & bought).

BTW, another alternative to get around not having a Bluray drive on future systems is to provide a disc-to-digital program like Walmart does with DVD & Bluray movies on Vudu. Charge them to do it if they keep their media. Or have them send the disc in for a reduced rate or a free exchange. Good way to save the environment. ;)

Tommy McClain
 
But Sony were seemingly behind schedule before the Blu-ray issues hit. You state they didn't blame Nvidia and I can't see they would? Firstly this is not how most Japanese companies do business, secondly Nvidia was only the designer of RSX with fabrication being Sony's problem. At the time [of Nvidia's CFO's statement] Sony were still on track for a Spring 2006 launch but not having actual production sample silicon at any level nine months (at most) before launch is horribly behind. Sony would have had no production sampling silicon at any level which means developers were working on highly abstracted dev systems with hardware representative of target hardware but with no guarantee of actual specifications which change as production kinks are addressed. Remember how PS4 started out with 192Gb/sec GDDR5 specification and this dropped quite late to 176Gb/sec GDDR5?

Finally there was the OS. Let's be frank, it was shit when it launched in Europe and that's after four months work - the experience Japanese and US gamers had to endure would awful. And it took a good six months before it really settled.

Blu-ray caused delays but these seem to be the least of Sony's problem. Had the Blu-ray standards issues not occurred, what kind of state would PS3 have been in for launch for Spring 2006?

Actually I never believed the spring 2006 launch was real. It is true that they didn't have a lot ready for that and it's a very odd time to do a WW launch. I personally believe that date was little more than to make it seem it's coming near after the 360, sorry don't have a official link of that. Just my opinion. Maybe someone at some point at Sony believed that spring launch was possible, who knows... The fact is that at the end of the day, they had trouble launching it in late 2006 because of Blu-ray issues and had to further postpone the European launch, these issues would have been even worse at spring.

Console launches are often a chaotic and many things aren't ready. Final silicon very often comes at the latest possible stage. RSX was the least of their problems and that Eurogamer link states nothing to back you up. 360 launched with a bleeding edge 90nm process with new advanced GPU architecture a year before the PS3 and the dev kits only got the final silicon 2-3 months before the launch. http://www.gamezone.com/originals/final-360-developers-kit-arrives (the original source is dead) The conservative design of the RSX a year later was easy in comparison. nVidia already launched their more advanced next gen architecture the same time PS3 launched in 2006. In the end your RSX angle just doesn't hold any water, Blu-ray was the largest problem Sony faced and they were very committed to it :) and this off topic is now done on my part.
 
Last edited:
You simply insert your 360 disc into your xb1 and plug that into the xb2 using the hdmi in and then wait for the xb2 to download a new image of the title.

In a couple of gens you will be able to go:

"Activate HDMI interlock! Dynotherms connected! Infracells up! Mega thrusters are go! LET'S GO XBOX FORCE!..Form feet and legs! Form arms and body! And, I'll form the head!"

See MS thinks of everything.

Ironically, this is one of the areas where MS's original, near-console-killing, model for dealing with physical media would have been an advantage. The discs would have been associated with your account so, if the next gen box had BC, all of your old games both physical-sourced and online-sourced could easily be brought forward to your new console.
 
Only if you use physical disc. I have yet to insert any physical disc media into my xbox one. All items played there are digital items. So a nextgen xbox two would never need a bluray drive for me to play xbox one titles.
I have yet to insert any physical disc media into an xbox one too, so yea BC is overrated.
 
So just played my 1st two games on the X1 BC list. Both were very early titles, but other than one minor stutter, they played flawlessly.

The titles were the original Geometry Wars and Zuma. The stutter occured on GW and it was very early in the game and might have been due to Zuma just being installed. I couldn't replicate it and weirdly there wasn't much going on screen. Later with a lot more enemies and particles it was flawless.

I have more games on my ready to install list, but don't have the HDD space to make it happen without having to uninstall some titles. I'm hoping a lot more titles show up soon and they are able to cut down the install size to not have to account for the emu with each title.
 
Actually I never believed the spring 2006 launch was real. It is true that they didn't have a lot ready for that and it's a very odd time to do a WW launch. I personally believe that date was little more than to make it seem it's coming near after the 360, sorry don't have a official link of that. Just my opinion. Maybe someone at some point at Sony believed that spring launch was possible, who knows... The fact is that at the end of the day, they had trouble launching it in late 2006 because of Blu-ray issues and had to further postpone the European launch, these issues would have been even worse at spring.

Console launches are often a chaotic and many things aren't ready. Final silicon very often comes at the latest possible stage. RSX was the least of their problems and that Eurogamer link states nothing to back you up. 360 launched with a bleeding edge 90nm process with new advanced GPU architecture a year before the PS3 and the dev kits only got the final silicon 2-3 months before the launch. http://www.gamezone.com/originals/final-360-developers-kit-arrives (the original source is dead) The conservative design of the RSX a year later was easy in comparison. nVidia already launched their more advanced next gen architecture the same time PS3 launched in 2006. In the end your RSX angle just doesn't hold any water, Blu-ray was the largest problem Sony faced and they were very committed to it :) and this off topic is now done on my part.
The basic OS also existed years before the PS3 existed. Sony was testing the XMB on their PSX console which was a released product. I am pretty sure Sony didnt meet deadlines for many things but most likely they would have preferred to release in 2006 regardless and fix things through firmware updates. The BR being the primary cause is a more likely explanation considering the extra delay of the European release.
 
The basic OS also existed years before the PS3 existed. Sony was testing the XMB on their PSX console which was a released product. I am pretty sure Sony didnt meet deadlines for many things but most likely they would have preferred to release in 2006 regardless and fix things through firmware updates. The BR being the primary cause is a more likely explanation considering the extra delay of the European release.

The PSX had the the same basic UI as the later PS3, but so did a lot of other Sony products. The OS was not the same though. Here is a video of the UI:

BTW, do you know that PSVita and PS4 share the same basic OS/dev tools even though they have vastly different UIs and uses?
 
...

The aspect of the GS that makes it challenging to emulate is the 2,560-bit internal bus. I'm sure I've told this story before but I'll tell it again. Back in 1998/99 I was on a secondment to the UK's Department of Trade & Industry (the Government Department that deals with commerce issues) which was home to the Export Control Organisation (ECO). The ECO is a regulator that controls the export of strategic goods (like military equipment), dual-use goods (like advanced manufacturing equipment) and advanced technology (like high-grade cryptography and supercomputers). Some things need licence before they can be exported (or indeed now, traded between overseas countries) because of their inherent opportunity for mis-use.

We received an enquiry for Sony Europe about this new supercomputer technology they had and wanted to come and talk to us about so they could work how they could manage exports of a new product between EU Member States. They came in and told us the product was the "successor to the PlayStation" and they believed it was classified as supercomputer under EU Dual-Use regulations (the EU's law). Bear in mind, this was before Sony had announced PlayStation 2. We were sceptical of course but the Sony guys explained that the internal bus was 2,560 bits wide and operated at whatever frequency and the EU had a definition on supercomputers that includes a threshold for data throughput of about half that the bandwidth of the GS. We some spent time on this and eventually concludes that it wasn't a supercomputer because the bandwidth was not user addressable - i.e. it was high bandwidth but limited in use case scenarios.

I assume Sony had similar discussions with other regulators and I recall the press story that was carried in many places that Iraq's Suddam Hussein was planning to build a super computer comprised of networked PS2s.

As a PlayStation owner it was utterly cool to know that PS2 was coming but awful that I couldn't tell anybody about it. My most relevant claim to non-fame thanks to the Official Secrets Act. Thanks, Government :yep2:

...
Cool story.
 
Back
Top