*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion

[bkilian]

Two things:

1) The core architecture of xb360 is easier/simpler to emulate. 3 cores of “weak” ppc right? That plus an amd designed unified 48 pipe gpu and embedded ram.

2) According to MS, the new architecture is supposed to be 10x more powerful with new efficiencies blablabla, right? Plus the new architecture is x86 and super easy to code for right?

BC of an old, ancient, and weak system like xb360 should be a cake walk for MS.

Except it isn't. There were multiple attempts at BC made for the One, and none of them gave satisfactory results. Straight emulation like the 360 has is out. The 360 has a theoretical peak of the same GFLOPS as the jaguar on the CPU. Even though the average IPC for 360 is only 0.2, most games had some heavily optimized subsystems that would run very slowly emulated on a jaguar.

They also tried machine recompilation, both dynamic and precompiled (basically when you put in a 360 disc, it would download the recompiled binaries and use those instead). I left before this initiative was done, but I hear it was also unsuccessful due to inconsistent performance.

I love how quickly people pull out the "Lazy Dev" argument when they're armchair quarterbacking.

 

[James Car]

Except it isn't...The 360 has a theoretical peak of the same GFLOPS as the jaguar on the CPU...

(In case you were wondering, much of the above regarding power differences between xb360 and xbone were remarks to prove a point.)

Thank you for making my point for me.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

1) The core architecture of xb360 is easier/simpler to emulate. 3 cores of “weak” ppc right?

Emulating a completely different CPU architecture has never been easy. Look at something like Android emulation on a PC in the Android SDK. Or struggles emulating PS2 of a ridiculously faster PS3 or PC.

This is the price people pay for having dedicated hardware that changes gen to gen, with developers able to tap it. The shift to abstracted hardware will solve that in future, but I expect an equal numbers of complainants about how consoles aren't being tapped to their full potential thanks to forwards compatibility measures. Of course ,Ms could have added hardware BC, and then people would complain about the cost of the console. Or, the only solution people won't grumble about, MS could have put in BC hardware and sold the hardware at loss, paying huge amounts into the ever-popular "give gamers everything they want" charity.

 

[James Car]

... Or...MS could have put in BC hardware and sold the hardware at loss...

I find this argument difficult to believe given the MSRP of $500.

Also:

This is the price people pay for having dedicated hardware that changes gen to gen...

That's my point. The architecture changed, but there wasn't much benefit. In other words, libraries of games were/are lost for ... nothing.

PPC could have still been used and still given a performance bump while not breaking BC. Sure, there would have been time invested to get certain workarounds for quirks in the xb360 architecture, and fixing timing issues, etc.

But if the intent is to build on the platform and userbase, then this is a required step to do so. Costs money/time to do, but it is an investment. Much like the investment of gamers of xbl, and game purchases.

 

[patsu]

They said they were rolling out Gaikai for PS3 games on PS4 in 2014 at E3. US first. No more details than that.

Yeah, I can't decide whether to call it a rumor or an official confirmation at this point.
I am more curious about the technology than the games. ^_^

They may already have it, seeing as the PS4 engine is reportedly the PS3 engine. It'd be an easy way to get another PS4 title, and will milk the franchise for those double dipping.

I wonder how easy it is to port a cross platform PC game to the PS4, instead of using the PS3 version.

TLoU on PS4 will definitely be worthwhile. I would try out the spectating and remote assistance feature Sony touted. And RemotePlay.

Edit:
I am also curious about that Gaikai fee. Probably expensive ?

 

[AzBat]

I get that it's hard & expensive to do backward compatibility. And I appreciate that Microsoft attempted to offer it, but they're completely have ignored trying to provide other means to ease their existing users into the next-gen. They basically just said "Deal with it". LOL They could have offered a OnLive/Gaikai-type service like the PS4. I might have been open to that even it there was a fee. They could have ported XNA & XBLIG over to XB1, but they completely abandoned that platform. They could have offered complete social interaction between XB1 & 360 users. They own & develop the OS & network infrastructure for both. So why can't we do cross platform game/party/private chat via text/voice/video? You mean I will have to shutdown my XB1 & power up my 360 just to keep chatting with my 360 friends? FAIL. Had they at least done a few of those ideas that I could have stomached not having access to my disc & XBLA games, but it's like they haven't bothered doing anything. Hopefully we will hear more details as launch gets closer, but I'm not real optimistic.

Tommy McClain

 

[dobwal]

I get that it's hard & expensive to do backward compatibility. And I appreciate that Microsoft attempted to offer it, but they're completely have ignored trying to provide other means to ease their existing users into the next-gen. They basically just said "Deal with it". LOL They could have offered a OnLive/Gaikai-type service like the PS4. I might have been open to that even it there was a fee. They could have ported XNA & XBLIG over to XB1, but they completely abandoned that platform. They could have offered complete social interaction between XB1 & 360 users. They own & develop the OS & network infrastructure for both. So why can't we do cross platform game/party/private chat via text/voice/video? You mean I will have to shutdown my XB1 & power up my 360 just to keep chatting with my 360 friends? FAIL. Had they at least done a few of those ideas that I could have stomached not having access to my disc & XBLA games, but it's like they haven't bothered doing anything. Hopefully we will hear more details as launch gets closer, but I'm not real optimistic.

Tommy McClain

Just plug your 360 into your xb1.

Would of been nice if you could stream from your 360 to your xb1 and vice versa.

 

[AzBat]

Just plug your 360 into your xb1.

Yeah, mentioned that before(eg: Xbox Mini). Not ideal since it will require multiple controllers, headsets(unless you have that new adapter they will release) or other accessories, but yes, it would work. Just aggravating.

Would of been nice if you could stream from your 360 to your xb1 and vice versa.

Ooh. So not like OnLive/Gaikai where it's streamed from the cloud, but streamed directly from the 360? That's better than just using the XB1 as a receiver via the HDMI In. That way you wouldn't need 360 controllers/accessories. I could go for that.

Tommy McClain

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sony is only intending to roll out Gaikai BC. It's not there from Day 1 AFAIK, and it's questionable what will come with it. It also cost Sony $lots to buy Gaikai to enable this, otherwise they likely wouldn't bother to provide BC at all. There's little incentive for MS to invent a game streaming tech just for BC.

 

[AzBat]

Sony is only intending to roll out Gaikai BC. It's not there from Day 1 AFAIK, and it's questionable what will come with it. It also cost Sony $lots to buy Gaikai to enable this, otherwise they likely wouldn't bother to provide BC at all. There's little incentive for MS to invent a game streaming tech just for BC.

70million+ Xbox 360 owners is not incentive? Wow!

Tommy McClain

 

[James Car]

...There's little incentive for MS to invent a game streaming tech just for BC.

I suppose this will depend on how the userbase transition goes for them vs Sony. But of course, by the time those hard numbers are available, it will be too late to act.

 

[James Car]

70million+ Xbox 360 owners is not incentive? Wow!

Tommy McClain

Exactly.

MS xbox division are acting as if they are in OS monopoly world. They need(ed) to do everything they could to ensure their loyal gamers came with them to the new system AND/ALSO attract new gamers. Instead, it seems they are facing a good bit of userbase erosion which may snowball on them.

 

[BoardBonobo]

70million+ Xbox 360 owners is not incentive? Wow!

Tommy McClain

Why would they be? MS is still selling the 360, that is their backwards compatibility strategy. If you buy into the XBone and want to play some Gears, buy a 360. Or to paraphrase an ex MS employee ' Deal with it'!

 

[xexuxjy]

Why would they? because they're burning a lot of bridges and already irritating a lot of users. I've stopped buying new stuff for my xbox, even from the summer sales. It just seems so short sighted to have built up such a brilliant infrastructure for digital games with XBLA/XBLIG and then to throw it all away with a move to a the new console. It's certainly not going to give people a lot of confidence in digital purchases on the new machine and although I recognise the techincal challanges it requires for BC and can appreciate what bkillian has said about their attempts I do think they haven't acknowledge how much the world has moved on and what peoples expectations of digital libraries are these days.

 

[Phil]

It's weird to me how 95% of BC bitching only comes from Xbox gamers.

Oh you are so wrong. I'm actually just in denial on the lacking BC compatibility with PS3 games on the PS4.

And no, I don't really care for the Gaikai service. It's a streaming service and I'm not at all convinced I would want to play my games like that. Besides, as I mentioned, I have around 30 games I own on disk and another at least 10 that I own digitally. How would Gaikai work anyway? Would I have to re-purchase them?

Especially now that we've effectively built up an online-identity that goes beyond a singular platform, it would have been great to still be able to play the investments I bought. Sure, I know there's a trade-off - but if there was the option to buy a second SKU that is backwards-compatible - I would. It would mean I could just get rid of my current PS3 and keep the games and still have access to them.

Having two consoles hooked up is simply not an option for me - especially, once you do have two consoles, you're also bound to have the controllers from each one as well. It's just plain messy.

Anyway, especially during the transition phase of going from PS3 to PS4 - it would have been great to have backwards-compatibility. Not all friends are upgrading immediately - we still play numerous games online with each other. When the day comes I'll be upgrading, I will either need to hook up my PS3 to continue playing my games online with them or simply not play with them at all. And given that at every launch, quality games are limited, it actually makes more sense to wait-it-out and keep on playing the socially-connected-PS3 than to upgrade to something that just isn't a worthy replacement yet.

 

[patsu]

I think people under-estimate the effort required to launch a new console. They want to plan for the next decade, so they usually want to break away from the current baggage (whatever limitations and support issues behind the scene).

When Sony launched Vita, they also got dinged for weak PSP library support, bad PSN integration. It took them months after launch to hook things up together.

If Sony and MS chose not to support b/c, it's a huge decision they don't tread lightly. They have to prioritize it with new development.

Sony's PS3 Gaikai thing is not here yet. For all we know, it may be a very limited feature. Unless they open it up to everyone, beyond the small PS4 userbase, it also smells expensive. I am pegging my expectation rather low at this point.

 

[James Car]

...I do think they haven't acknowledge how much the world has moved on and what peoples expectations of digital libraries are these days.

This argument was brought up earlier in this thread, but was disregarded as "oh well, lesson learned from 'bad architecture choices' of xb360. People will get over it. Besides, who plays or values old games?"

Well, I suppose we shall see later this year how the decisions at xbone HQ play out in the marketplace.

It's funny that the biggest face of disgust I get from talking with xbox gamers is the lack of BC. Not the weak spec, not even the DRM nightmare.

Oh well, right? I mean, who values brand loyalty these days? People switch from ipad to PC to android phones every day.

 

[James Car]

If Sony and MS chose not to support b/c, it's a huge decision that they don't tread lightly. They have to prioritize it with new development...

It seems Sony certainly knew that BC was out of the question with ps4, but with MS, as BK said, they tried to get BC working on xbone.

Turns out, the jaguar cores are too weak to emulate xcpu.

Whoda thunk it?

 

[BoardBonobo]

Oh you are so wrong. I'm actually just in denial on the lacking BC compatibility with PS3 games on the PS4.

And no, I don't really care for the Gaikai service. It's a streaming service and I'm not at all convinced I would want to play my games like that. Besides, as I mentioned, I have around 30 games I own on disk and another at least 10 that I own digitally. How would Gaikai work anyway? Would I have to re-purchase them?

Especially now that we've effectively built up an online-identity that goes beyond a singular platform, it would have been great to still be able to play the investments I bought. Sure, I know there's a trade-off - but if there was the option to buy a second SKU that is backwards-compatible - I would. It would mean I could just get rid of my current PS3 and keep the games and still have access to them.

Having two consoles hooked up is simply not an option for me - especially, once you do have two consoles, you're also bound to have the controllers from each one as well. It's just plain messy.

Anyway, especially during the transition phase of going from PS3 to PS4 - it would have been great to have backwards-compatibility. Not all friends are upgrading immediately - we still play numerous games online with each other. When the day comes I'll be upgrading, I will either need to hook up my PS3 to continue playing my games online with them or simply not play with them at all. And given that at every launch, quality games are limited, it actually makes more sense to wait-it-out and keep on playing the socially-connected-PS3 than to upgrade to something that just isn't a worthy replacement yet.

It would be nice if you could take your PS3 game disc, and either install or copy the entire thing to your PS4 and the gaikai service could use the assets stored locally to run the BC and just use gaikai to do the grunt work. That would massively decrease the amount of bandwidth required. It's be pretty complicated to set up though so I guess it's a bit of a pipe dream!

But at least this way if you already have the game then you don't have to purchase\hire again and get the benefit of a locally stored set of assets.

 

[patsu]

It seems Sony certainly knew that BC was out of the question with ps4, but with MS, as BK said, they tried to get BC working on xbone.

Turns out, the jaguar cores are too weak to emulate xcpu.

Whoda thunk it?

Yes, we heard a few flip flops between Sony's architectural choices (Cell or no Cell) since 2-3 years ago.

On Vita side, they have to QA the (emulated) PSP library as fast as they could. In the beginning, they trickled out bit by bit. It took time for the b/c library to build up.