Sony VR Headset/Project Morpheus/PlayStation VR

[pjbliverpool]

I'm looking at the media and gamers reception of this streaming weird thing, and it oscillates between "this is useless" and "this is hilarious". If microsoft doesn't have a VR headset at E3 this year they forfeit console VR to Sony until next gen. This would really slow down third parties commitment.

I think it's likely that if Microsoft does announce VR support at E3, it will be using OR. Everything's already in place for it to be used. The controller, the streaming, the deal with OR. Seems like a no brainer to me. It also seems like a bit of an afterthought. They saw what Sony was doing with Morpheus, realised they were too late to the party to develop their own solution, and so decided to jump on the OR bandwagon. Hence why the display is less than optimal for the console. Reminds me a bit of RSX.

Yes we know about the virtual theater. The problem is how he introduced this as playing xbox one games in VR, and something they are extremely proud of. The room was expecting VR xbox games. This is a very minor feature that everybody have.

Yep they certainly presented that all wrong. They built peoples expectations and then wiped them out. They probably shouldn't have even mentioned XBO before showing that virtual cinema video. They should have simply said, check out this new feature we have for non VR games... and oh, BTW, yes that was an XBO you saw there, this feature will be supported by the XBO so you'll be able to play Halo, Forza etc... in virtual cinema mode on the OR... and we have more to announce at E3....

That would have went down much better.

 

[London Geezer]

Would there really be a problem with 60->90? You'd just re-project every third frame as opposed to Sony's solution that re-projects every second frame. You would still get a unique frame on every refresh but 2 out of 3 would be fully rendered, while 1 out of 2 would be in Sony's solution.

I understand that re-projecting every other frame gives a more even output in theory but since every frame is unique anyway at the displays native refresh, do we know if that actually matters?

On a slightely related note, from what I've read, and I may just be off on my understanding here, I thought the PC implementation actually re-projects every single frame insofar as that frame is rendered, and then just before it gets sent to the display it's offset to match the latest head position. Do we know if Sony's solution does the same? Or have I got that wrong altogether?

Wouldn't that introduce judder? Like most older TVs would show 24p footage with 3:2 pulldown?

 

[pjbliverpool]

Wouldn't that introduce judder? Like most older TVs would show 24p footage with 3:2 pulldown?

I don;t know enough about it to say tbh. But we are talking about a unique frame on every single refresh which is unlike the situation that normally causes judder, i.e. duplicate frames on some refreshes.

Also, it's worth noting that if 60->90 would cause judder (1 in 3 frames reprojected) then 30->120 would also cause judder (3 in 4 frames re-projected) and according to eastman, Sony have said 30->120 is a viable option - although I haven't seen that source myself.

 

[London Geezer]

I don;t know enough about it to say tbh. But we are talking about a unique frame on every single refresh which is unlike the situation that normally causes judder, i.e. duplicate frames on some refreshes.

Also, it's worth noting that if 60->90 would cause judder (1 in 3 frames reprojected) then 30->120 would also cause judder (3 in 4 frames re-projected) and according to eastman, Sony have said 30->120 is a viable option - although I haven't seen that source myself.

I am also speaking out of rather limited understanding, so I'm as confused as you.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

why wouldn't the XB1 be able to output 45 fps

I don't know if it can or can't. But seeing as 45 Hz isn't an official spec, it makes more sense to assume it's not a valid feature than is. DSoup has mentioned before that HDMI can be customised, so it may be doable, but it's definitely wrong to assume XB1 can just do as PS4 regards VR.

So why would MS not be able to do the same but offset at 90hz ?

Er, I said that MS could just that if 45 Hz output is possible.

Some games for sony might refresh at 60fps but sony said 30fps would also work.

Where? I don't recall that. AFAIK the option is 120 fps native or 60 fps upscaled.

I don;t know enough about it to say tbh. But we are talking about a unique frame on every single refresh which is unlike the situation that normally causes judder, i.e. duplicate frames on some refreshes.

Timing seems the problem. But thinking about it a bit more, it may not be. Rather than synchronise the display to the video output, you could sample the current time point and offset the camera. This would necessitate a little extra lag though.

Also, it's worth noting that if 60->90 would cause judder (1 in 3 frames reprojected) then 30->120 would also cause judder (3 in 4 frames re-projected) and according to eastman, Sony have said 30->120 is a viable option - although I haven't seen that source myself.

30 > 120 wouldn't because the one frame would be uniformly sampled and repositioned across the four sub-frames. In frame timings, you'd have

frame times (ms)

30 > 120
rendered sampled
   0       0
   0       8.33
   0       16.67
   0       25
  33       33.33
  33       41.67
  33       50
  33       58.33
  66       66.67
  66       75
  66       83.33
  66       91.67
100       100


frame times (ms)

60 > 90
rendered sampled
   0       0
   0       11.11
  17       22.22
  17       33.33
  33       44.44
  33       55.55
  50       66.66
  50       77.77
  66       88.88
  66       100
100

The interval between a frame being created and shown on 60 > 90 varies. If you only adjust the head camera on tweened frames, you'll have adjustments at irregular intervals. If you adjust the head camera on every frame though, it could work, but then you'll need a little extra latency.

 

[hesido]

Would there really be a problem with 60->90? You'd just re-project every third frame as opposed to Sony's solution that re-projects every second frame. You would still get a unique frame on every refresh but 2 out of 3 would be fully rendered, while 1 out of 2 would be in Sony's solution.

I understand that re-projecting every other frame gives a more even output in theory but since every frame is unique anyway at the displays native refresh, do we know if that actually matters?

On a slightely related note, from what I've read, and I may just be off on my understanding here, I thought the PC implementation actually re-projects every single frame insofar as that frame is rendered, and then just before it gets sent to the display it's offset to match the latest head position. Do we know if Sony's solution does the same? Or have I got that wrong altogether?

For 60 to 90 hz conversion, if you just simply output at 60hz, the second frame have not arrived in time to be displayed on the 90hz display. Because of this, out of 3 whole frames displayed on the rift, at least 2 should be re-projected, based on the information from the most recent frame..

 

[fuboi]

We all have the experience of being on a dance floor with the stroboscope giving that cool effect. Infinite Hz head tracking update, but finite Hz scene updates. Now change the stroboscope between 30 and 90 Hz, see how long you can take it.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, the flash in the disco stroboscope is quite a part of the disco effect. But just imagine your normal environment freezing at 30 to 90 Hz. Or better, a fluid environment, like driving or playing soccer, or running, at 30-90 Hz freezes per second. It will be subjective (if somebody starts another "I can't see 60fps, 30fps is fine" thread on the internet I will cut you), but noticeable for some, and for more people the lower you go on your scene updates. Even if your reprojection is running at like 240 fps.

 

[MrFox]

Richard Marks was asked if reprojection could be used at 30fps, and he said they really recommend 60fps as the minimum.

Oculus said on stage yesterday that the rift was judder free. They recommend 90fps and they never recommended anything else. Logically, the only way to be judder free at 90hz is to render at 90fps.

My understanding of judder is this:

There is judder whenever a frame is flashed more than once. The fun thing about 60 to 120 is that the artifacts are above the perception treshold, which means it is seen as a blurring, not flashing or shaking. When the frame rate is an exact multiple of the refresh, it's the best case scenario. At 30 to 120, the visible judder is at the same frequency as 60 to 90. It is seen as a 30hz shaking of the moving objects. There is LESS judder at 45 to 90 than at 60 to 90.

The same thing happens when a game feels smoother at a rock solid 30fps instead of 45fps on a 60hz display. At 30fps the judder is 30hz, at 45fps the judder is 15hz. This is a major reason for monitor support of variable sync. It creates a continuous best case display.

The 24hz to 60hz film conversion is shaking at a 12hz frequency, it is very noticeable with camera pans. With TVs that support 120hz, this smooths it out up to 24hz, which makes a big difference.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I don't know if it can or can't. But seeing as 45 Hz isn't an official spec, it makes more sense to assume it's not a valid feature than is. DSoup has mentioned before that HDMI can be customised, so it may be doable, but it's definitely wrong to assume XB1 can just do as PS4 regards VR.

Just to clarify this, HDMI is a hardware bus with standardised data protocols managed by firmware to provide interoperability between devices So while Microsoft could define a a new 45Hz display rate and modify Xbox One to output this, I doubt there are any display devices ready and able to accept and display the data. I think my comment was probably in relation to Morpheus where you have a Sony console and a Sony VR system. When you have this luxury of full control over both pieces of hardware, you can basically do what you like with the HDMI bus.

If you're looking for standard variable frame and refresh rates then you'll be waiting for HDMI 3.0 at least, but for which there are already proposals for such capabilities.

 

[eastmen]

I don't know if it can or can't. But seeing as 45 Hz isn't an official spec, it makes more sense to assume it's not a valid feature than is. DSoup has mentioned before that HDMI can be customised, so it may be doable, but it's definitely wrong to assume XB1 can just do as PS4 regards VR.

But why would the xbox send out 45hz ? It would render at 45fps and then like sony would convert it to a 90hz signal to the OR.

Where? I don't recall that. AFAIK the option is 120 fps native or 60 fps upscaled.

its been months but they've said it in talks , 60fps is ideal but 30fps works also.

Timing seems the problem. But thinking about it a bit more, it may not be. Rather than synchronise the display to the video output, you could sample the current time point and offset the camera. This would necessitate a little extra lag though.

30 > 120 wouldn't because the one frame would be uniformly sampled and repositioned across the four sub-frames. In frame timings, you'd have

frame times (ms)

30 > 120
rendered sampled
   0       0
   0       8.33
   0       16.67
   0       25
  33       33.33
  33       41.67
  33       50
  33       58.33
  66       66.67
  66       75
  66       83.33
  66       91.67
100       100


frame times (ms)

60 > 90
rendered sampled
   0       0
   0       11.11
  17       22.22
  17       33.33
  33       44.44
  33       55.55
  50       66.66
  50       77.77
  66       88.88
  66       100
100

The interval between a frame being created and shown on 60 > 90 varies. If you only adjust the head camera on tweened frames, you'll have adjustments at irregular intervals. If you adjust the head camera on every frame though, it could work, but then you'll need a little extra latency.

I don't know much about that to be honest.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Oculus said on stage yesterday that the rift was judder free. They recommend 90fps and they never recommended anything else. Logically, the only way to be judder free at 90hz is to render at 90fps.

Reprojection itself can cause judder so the only way to completely eliminate it is to render at the native refresh rate, like Oculus recommend. But becuase you can never guarentee that (hardly ever anyway) async timewarp is there to catch the occasional dropped frame, which while not perfect, is better than displaying the same frame twice.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Why wouldn't the Xbox just do reprojection, like PS4 with Morpheus. They'd reproject from 45 fps and output 90fps to the device. Display resolution is slightly higher on Oculus than Morpheus, but they could probably find a resolution that scales well. It's not an ideal setup compared to PC, but it doesn't seem totally out of the question if they want the device to work on Xbox. They'd just need to sell an external box to hook up the device, like the one that will come with Morpheus, so you can have a tv and the headset connected together.

 

[MrFox]

its been months but they've said it in talks , 60fps is ideal but 30fps works also.

Do you have a link where anyone from Sony said that? Every interview I saw repeats 60hz render is the minimum, regardless of reprojection.

Like this one which is the most technical interview I found (for once, the journalist is not a moron)
He asks about the 120hz around 2:30 and then specifically about 30fps around 3:30

 

[eastmen]

Do you have a link where anyone from Sony said that? Every interview I saw repeats 60hz render is the minimum, regardless of reprojection.

Like this one which is the most technical interview I found (for once, the journalist is not a moron)
He asks specifically about 30fps around 2:30

I'll have to look for it at this point. I think it may have been tested. I will try to check for it tonight.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why wouldn't the Xbox just do reprojection, like PS4 with Morpheus.

That's another possibility, although the first suggestion was a breakout box to alleviate the GPU. Assuming XB1 can output 90 Hz at the OVR res. I see that OVR requires HDMI 1.3 and XB1 is 1.4, so I guess it'll work.

 

[MrFox]

Reprojection itself can cause judder so the only way to completely eliminate it is to render at the native refresh rate, like Oculus recommend. But becuase you can never guarentee that (hardly ever anyway) async timewarp is there to catch the occasional dropped frame, which while not perfect, is better than displaying the same frame twice.

All frames are reprojected.

The way to eliminate visible judder is to have a refresh rate divisible by the frame rate, and a frame rate at or above 60hz.

90hz is stuck at 90hz. 120hz can do 60hz.

 

[eastmen]

http://www.ibtimes.com/microsofts-x...ring-oculus-vr-lets-us-focus-hololens-1963263

IBTimes: How will the Oculus Rift stream Xbox One games? Spencer: It's really nice. It's a 2-D display in a 3-D world, so we're not turning all the Xbox games into virtual reality games. But the fact that you get a big screen -- the screen kind of feels like that (Spencer points to a giant projection screen at the event thats about 7 feet by 10 feet) -- and the fact that everything else is nonexistent, everything else is blacked out, your mind's eye is on the screen, it's really a nice, immersive, dark experience. And a lot of the guys back at the office, that's the way they want to play.

IBTimes: How will this partnership impact the Hololens, the augmented reality headset Microsoft announced earlier this year?
Spencer: This partnership allows us to focus on a space that's different from them with our Hololens, which has a lot of things still to be figured out. This partnership seemed like the right for me. The whole Hololens team sent me a picture -- they actually watched the briefing with the Hololens on, streaming the picture on the wall. It's like the most surreal thing, but they were all really excited about the show

Interesting that he says they are not turning all xbox games into virtual reality games. So they are going to make some VR ?

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think the virtual theater is pretty useless. It's probably incredibly easy to do, so why not offer it as a feature. They could maybe make themes that are suited to the game. Like, you're playing diablo and you're sitting in a room that looks like hell or something. But I think it's just a quick novelty feature.

I wouldn't be surprised if they announced something with Oculus on Xbox one at E3, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they don't. My personal preference would be to have a device that worked on both the PC and the console, even if the console experience was a bit compromised.

Btw, is Morpheus planned to work with the PC? If not, it should be.

 

[MrFox]

PR messaging from microsoft remains unreadable to this day.

Tsunoda implies you can stream directly from xbox one to the rift without a PC.
Head of xbox announces a big partnership between xbox and oculus... doesn't give any indication the xbox will have any VR.
Spencer says VR requires the highest performance, and show a simple streaming app.
Now he implied some xbox games will be full VR games. So a headset is coming?
Next it will be a confusion about whether playing full VR xbox games require a PC. I'm calling it.

 

[MrFox]

From eastmen link... It does sound like something similar to the PS3 RSX... but worse. They talk about oculus as if they never even tried to make a VR headset for xbox.

International Business Times: What motivated you guys to do this partnership?

Phil Spencer: For the real motivation, I go back to our origins with Windows when there were hardware companies doing real innovative work on top of our platform, and I think that's a good spot for us to be with Microsoft supporting these ecosystems. Some times we'll participate with products, like the Xbox, but in other opportunities it's best to find people who are doing amazing work and just say "What can we do to help you guys be more successful with your product?" And that's where we are with Oculus VR. I've known [Oculus VR CEO] Brendan Iribe for years, I've known the team, so it was natural because of the relationship. It was fun to come out and do this with them.

BTimes: How does the partnership work? Will you guys get a licensing fee for each Xbox One controller?

Spencer: I won't go into the details, but it's nothing too complex. If you thought about how you might get a controller from us, it's kind of like that. On the other stuff, in terms of the technical integration, it's just working collaboratively on things that we're good at. There's not a financial thing there on the streaming. It's just we want them to be successful, we want Windows to be successful, and if people can play Xbox games in more places, we think that's good for everyone.