Sony PS3 Q+A (Leaked)
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You assume we will be able to purchase a drive like this under $599 in Nov? It's a bit steep price drop if you ask me.Powderkeg said:
http://www.supermediastore.com/panasonic-lf-mb121jd-blu-ray-burner-blueray-drive.html
one said:
That's a steep price drop? Do you realize that when that drive was first announced it had a $1500 price tag? Apparently it's already had a $650 price drop, and it hasn't even launched yet. So yeh, I could easily see another $250+ price drop over the next 6 months at that rate.
And I could easily see BenQ's drive retail for a lot cheaper since it was originally announced to have a retail price that was $500 cheaper than Panasonics.
Sis said:I just want to know how my Harmony remote will communicate with the PS3 in order to play Blu-ray movies. So far no one's been able to tell me.
I'm not sure about the Harmony remote but I reckon they will offer another remote for PS3 (like the PS2 one) so you may be able to use the standard IR codes to drive it.
The other more sexy possibility is via DLNA's media controller protocol (like PSP). In which case, you would be using a WiFi remote to interact with PS3 or any other media devices on the net.
Just my guesses.
But most of that useless functionality is software. They're not adding hardware that drives up the price to be able to give you internet access and Linux. The only extraneous component I can see is BRD, and even that's debateable whether it brings something to next-gen games or not. If Sony keep out Linux, homebrew, non-gaming applications, they'll still have Cell and RSX and the HDD and BRD drive hardware that makes it the PS3 gaming console, and it'll still cost as much. IMO, if the hardware if there such that it can be utilitised in more ways, it's a good idea to let it be used that way, if it adds nothing to the cost. For the price of a PS3 console, you get a 'computer' thrown in free. Whereas if Sony didn't do that, you'd only get a games console+movie player.PARANOiA said:Just release a PS3 without the extra next-to-useless functionality and give me a games machine. Thanks
What should Sony remove to drop the price? BRD and HDD? If you don't care for those things, why not just buy a XB360! It's these thing in part that differentiate the console and ensure we don't have two 512MB, no HDD utilised, DVD based consoles on the market with nothing between them other than software selection and box design.
You missed my point.Arsynic said:
PARANOiA said:
I don't think it is a mistake. The PS3 is more expensive than it's competitiors (mainly because of the inclusion of Bluray), so in order to justify the extra price they need to sell it on the basis of additional functionality. Sony would be making a serious mistake if they didn't try to do this.
I don't know what you are trying to suggest here, but the PS3's weakness certainly won't be with respect to games. Sony would want the games to run on the PS3 natively rather than on the OS. Why would you want games to run on the PC OS just to make things more difficult for yourself? The PC OS will be for non-games things.
The OS would be 100% configurable, but the hardware would be standard as with all consoles - that's a strength not a weakness. You would expand using the USB interface (eg. mass storage, webcams, flash card readers, USB keys, CD/DVD/Bluray burners, USB VoIP headsets, printers, scanners, graphics tablets, etc. etc.) and USB devices should be fully configurable. What you probably can't expand is the 256 MB XDR RAM (although it would be expandable to 768 MB if Sony would leave free some sort of expansion sockets - which they probably won't to save cost). 256 MB RAM is fine for Linux which can be configured to be efficient on memory, provided you have a hard drivw and you aren't running too many applications concurrently.
I think mod-chipping the PS3 would be difficult.
With an open OS like Linux, which is above the DRM layer, you can plug in an external USB CD/DVD writer, and rip and burn to your heart's content. You can also convert the files to mp3 and use a USB dongle to store and play them.
Since Sony is one of the largest music publishers, I am sure Sony will promote some kind of ipod-like music download service, and probably with a transfer facility to Sony's ipod competitor. This will all be below the DRM layer though like the ipod.
Is the Pope Catholic? Sony is one of the large movie publishers. They will certainly try to push some kind of movie download service at some time. It will be below the DRM level though.
It won't run Windows programs, but limited? - No, not for the purpose it is intended. The Mac is a very nice computer to emulate. The iPod is limited, not at all expandable, but a roaring success. It is one of a new generation of appliance devices which offer ease of use, something that the PC model lacks, and something that a lot of people - though not everyone will like. Your definition of a computer seems to be "a Windows PC".
Sony is into games consoles, HDTV sets and movie players. This is their core area, and their comfort zone. What they have done is to create a synergy between the three. Sony is a PC OEM as well, but a minor one.
Whether Sony can pull this off remains to be seen, but it is a well thought out marketing strategy, not an arbitrary decision. The "PS3 is a computer" mantra is marketing speak. The PS3 is a lot of things, but a games console primarily. I think what Sony is trying to emphasise with this mantra is that the Linux layer above the DRM layer and the HDD and USB expansion ports will be open and standard as in PC hardware, rather than proprietary like consoles traditionally. This is important if the "PC" functions of the PS3 are to take off, since these like on the ix86 PC are largely provided by third parties.
So you don't want to play PS3 games, you don't want a cheap Bluray player, you already have a PC and you are happy with that. Might I ask why you are even considering buying a console at all?
So you don't want to play PS3 games, but you do want to play Xbox 360 games. PS3 games apparently don't do anything more than your PC games, but Xbox 360 games do. Care to explain this. Maybe you aren't as happy with PC games as you said earlier. In that case, using the same logic, you could of course buy a Wii and spend the difference on a whole lot more games - unless of course you don't want to play Wii games either.
Just release a PS3 without the extra next-to-useless functionality and give me a games machine. Thanks
But since you don't want to play PS3 games anyway, and presumably, you won't buy one anyway even if Sony does, why should Sony bother reconfiguring their console strategy just for you?
Never have heard that the Panasonic/Matsushita drive had a $1500 tag. Care to give the link? LF-MB121JD was announced on April 21 by Matsushita and has been on sale since June 10 in Japan at around 100,000 yen ($876.58).Powderkeg said:
As for the BenQ burner, the latest article (July 3) says this:
http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=12723397&src=rss/technologyNews
Great post Shifty... really made me scratch my chin and think about my positiion.Shifty Geezer said:
I'd consider adding the Linux OS an expense. First of all, someone has to build/write it. Someone has to build the interface, and appropriate software layers keeping the users away from the core hardware (basically this is a requirement - otherwise I think piracy will be easy pickings... can anyone confirm)? Any company that pays people to do something has costs, and these costs are always, always passed back onto the customer. It's part of every business model, and it the very definition of "net profit".
Other than that, I guess Sony have built this thing to be a monster. They can't really "take something out", because they need BRD to float their movie business, and Cell to float their server-end partnerships. I just wish as a consumer I didn't have to wear it.. I just want to play the best games.
And the reason I don't just buy a 360? The games! I can't see a single game on the system that's made me think "I'll buy it!" I only need one, and I haven't seen anything on the horizon that looks even "better than ok". This is where Sony has excelled the last two generations. Now I have to decide between the game library, and my wallet
I think you missed my point entirely.SPM said:
First up, I was comparing the PS3 as a computer to the PC as a computer. Now, hands down, the PC will kick it's ass in terms of functionality, features, and user-base. I'm not talking about running PS3 games on a PC or vice versa (if that's what you meant - it's not entirely clear from your wording).
With "configurability", I'm not talking about buying USB ass-ons (though god knows why I would. I'm talking about being able to choose framerate vs AA, or even better, low-res and higher graphics settings/textures (for all those SD-users) vs high-res and toned-down quality settings. I'm talking overclocking for smoother gameplay, downloading user-made map-packs, with good tools to use and develop them. I'm sure the PS3 will have a little of this, but I would be very, very surprised to see it come to within 1% of the PC's "mod-community" user size.
And by modding, I'm not talking about chipping the console, I'm talking about creating extensions to games via new levels or TC's made for free by the game community.
I have a PC that burns CD's and DVD's, and no doubt within 12 months, Blu Ray discs too! Why would I buy another? If the BRD is the only thing that makes the PS3 worthwhile, Sony better have something good in the pipeline for 07 and 08, when it'll be common on PC's - that is, if it wins the format war.
In the end, my point is, as a computer, the PS3 looks to be a lousy choice vs a Windows PC. I cannot imagine anyone getting a PS3 as a computer. I can see people using the "computer" functionality (web surfing, etc) as a bonus, but they will buy a games console with nice little dot-points on the box.
And I think you have me pegged entirely wrong. I would love a PS3. I'm actually umming and ahing about throwing down the $AU1,000 for a pre-order, because if the last two generations have told me anything, it's that the Playstation provides the best couch-driven gaming experience. What shits me is that it's being sold as a computer, when I don't want a new computer that does much, much less than my current PC while costing roughly the same cost... I just want the new Wipeout/Final Fantasy/Tekken/Soul Calibur/that awesome Namco druming game (!) in high-def with great graphics. The same way I loved my DC over my PS1, and my PS1 over my Megadrive.
Perfect world... the above games will be released on the cheaper consoles (which look to have graphics that are very very close anyway, for much cheaper). Unfortunately, it's not a perfect world
That's of course true, but in relation to the costs of everything else I think these costs are negligable, plus they'd exist anyway if Sony are developing OSs for other purposes like handhelds and workstations. eg. IBM are supplying Cell Blade servers and they'll need an OS to be written for it, so if you're writing an OS anyway for other jobs, may as well chuck it onto your box and get added value for pretty much free.PARANOiA said:
In the long term, as gamers we may come out on top if everything goes according to Sony's scheming (which things rarely do!). If Cell takes off, it'll be a cheap, powerful, and well understood platform, so by the time PSP2 and PS4 come out, components could be both cheap and powerful and still useable without needing another new architecture to get you head round.
I'm glad Sony have gone this way. It's expensive and may bite them in the butt, but I'm glad for the variety of systems. Creating a whole new monster processor, wanting to encourage us users to create the content to sell their machines, it harkens back to older closed-box open-platforms. This way we have a choice between 3 different systems...
Cheap and different gaming
Moderately expensive gaming and media entertainment
More expensive All in One box of delights
I don't expect every platform to appeal to every user, but I'm glad we've got options, rather than
Moderately priced HD gaming platform with downloads and internet play from Nintendo with Mario
Moderately priced HD gaming platform with downloads and internet play from Microsoft with Halo
Moderately priced HD gaming platform with downloads and internet play from Sony with FF
Of course, diversity isn't so much fun when the choice you want goes beyond your budget
Linux actually wouldn't have to be much of an additional cost for Sony. They have the dev-kits running Linux I presume, and IBM worked on getting the Cell to run Linux. The Cell was originally designed partly to be Apple's next processor, after all, so you'll have to assume that during the development, getting Unix/Linux running on it was a significant goalpost.
There are a whole lot of reasons why Sony wants to present the PS3 as a computer in the consumer sense of the word.
First of all, the PS2 already was one, even though for the most part you couldn't really use it very much as such. The PS2 had the Harddrive, Network adapter and USB ports, the DVD drive, and you could even purchase a version of Linux at some point. This already allowed it to share a number of features with PCs (you could plug in standard 3.5" HDs, for one, and there's software to connect your PC to your PS2 over the network to copy stuff to and from the HD as well), you could share peripherals between PC and PS2 (there's a driver for the Eyetoy on the PC, you could interchange several Logitech peripherals between the two platforms, etc.).
Second, there is the whole Playstation Distribution Network (Live Arcade) thing. This system is partly coming from a long line of developments that is precisely intended to compete with the PC as a breeding ground for new developer talent. This started with the PS1's Yaroze, on through the PS2 Linux Kit, and now we have Linux installed on the PS3 by default. In combination with the new distribution platform, this development allows small developer talent to more easily distribute their work. Of course, the Cell processor needs this too - if it takes off, then the Cell platform could gain market share in a similar way to Linux on the web-server market.
It would also benefit the PS3 platform as a flexible media-device to compete with the PC in terms of downloadable codecs, homebrew and third party media applications, and so on, not to mention make available the majority of web-browsers. This would offer a system that has both a safe web-browser for dummies, in the form of Sony's XMB included browser, and all the other available Mozilla-family, Opera, Links and whatnot.
And that leads smoothly to the third advantage, which is to approach the PC market with the Cell as a mainstream computer CPU, the opposite of what IBM does top-down wise. I presume this idea stems partly from their response to Apple rejecting the Cell for their computers and going with Intel instead. Apple supporting the Wintel platform on their consoles isn't, I think, to promote Windows, but rather to ease people into going with Apple's Linux skin. Combining that strategy with the PS3's Linux approach, and Linux's overall development as a low-cost, consumer-friendly platform, might just work in crumbling Window's dominance. In that respect, if Apple were to make OS/X commercially available on the PS3 platform or through some agreement with Sony, that could give a strong synergistic advantage to all parties involved.
In the end, though, certainly many of these developments partly or even largely depend on the success of the PS3 as a games machine. Many people seem to forget that the Playstation brand is the single largest source of revenue for Sony by far. It has become so partly because Sony combined existing formulas for success with innovations that didn't necessarily seem a good idea at the time. The PS3 shows me that they are not taking their eye off the ball in this respect, and though of course they are taking more risks than ever, they are doing so with a very decent chance of success.
There are a whole lot of reasons why Sony wants to present the PS3 as a computer in the consumer sense of the word.
First of all, the PS2 already was one, even though for the most part you couldn't really use it very much as such. The PS2 had the Harddrive, Network adapter and USB ports, the DVD drive, and you could even purchase a version of Linux at some point. This already allowed it to share a number of features with PCs (you could plug in standard 3.5" HDs, for one, and there's software to connect your PC to your PS2 over the network to copy stuff to and from the HD as well), you could share peripherals between PC and PS2 (there's a driver for the Eyetoy on the PC, you could interchange several Logitech peripherals between the two platforms, etc.).
Second, there is the whole Playstation Distribution Network (Live Arcade) thing. This system is partly coming from a long line of developments that is precisely intended to compete with the PC as a breeding ground for new developer talent. This started with the PS1's Yaroze, on through the PS2 Linux Kit, and now we have Linux installed on the PS3 by default. In combination with the new distribution platform, this development allows small developer talent to more easily distribute their work. Of course, the Cell processor needs this too - if it takes off, then the Cell platform could gain market share in a similar way to Linux on the web-server market.
It would also benefit the PS3 platform as a flexible media-device to compete with the PC in terms of downloadable codecs, homebrew and third party media applications, and so on, not to mention make available the majority of web-browsers. This would offer a system that has both a safe web-browser for dummies, in the form of Sony's XMB included browser, and all the other available Mozilla-family, Opera, Links and whatnot.
And that leads smoothly to the third advantage, which is to approach the PC market with the Cell as a mainstream computer CPU, the opposite of what IBM does top-down wise. I presume this idea stems partly from their response to Apple rejecting the Cell for their computers and going with Intel instead. Apple supporting the Wintel platform on their consoles isn't, I think, to promote Windows, but rather to ease people into going with Apple's Linux skin. Combining that strategy with the PS3's Linux approach, and Linux's overall development as a low-cost, consumer-friendly platform, might just work in crumbling Window's dominance. In that respect, if Apple were to make OS/X commercially available on the PS3 platform or through some agreement with Sony, that could give a strong synergistic advantage to all parties involved.
In the end, though, certainly many of these developments partly or even largely depend on the success of the PS3 as a games machine. Many people seem to forget that the Playstation brand is the single largest source of revenue for Sony by far. It has become so partly because Sony combined existing formulas for success with innovations that didn't necessarily seem a good idea at the time. The PS3 shows me that they are not taking their eye off the ball in this respect, and though of course they are taking more risks than ever, they are doing so with a very decent chance of success.
Shifty Geezer said:Of course, diversity isn't so much fun when the choice you want goes beyond your budget
That's only going to be an issue if you insist on getting it on launch day though, which not nearly everyone will be able to do anyway even if they have the money ready. Instead, I predict that prices will come down quickly, first after 6 months, then again around Christmas 2007.
A price drop after 6 months would be unrealistic, especially back to back price drops. I wouldn't expect one until 2008, if past Sony history is any indication.Arwin said:
Here's the number one reason why Sony is desperate to market this thing as a computer:
Since they are likely struggling to bring the cost down, they need to give it some indefinable benefit. Calling it a computer adds consumer value (in the consumer's mind), even though likely all it'll ever do is downloads, similar to Xbox 360's Live service.SPM said:
Calling it a computer is not the same as making it a computer.
For a board that is supposed to be technically inclined, I continue to be amazed at how often the words "computer" and "PC" are used interchangeably, or as comprehensive substitutes for one another.
Calling it a computer, to me, says nothing particularly unusual for a videogame system. However obviously in the context created by Sony in interviews etc. they see it as more than a videogame system, a computer in the stronger sense of something that inherits some of the characteristics of a PC. But not all. They're not saying it's a PC, in fact I don't think they ever have. They've drawn comparison with some elements for sure (those they have borrowed from that space), but it's clear they see some distinction themselves.
And this is not something new for Sony, as the suggestion that it's a reaction to the price for the sake of marketing concerns. SCE has always had a vision of a new type of "home computer", they've always talked in those terms with the Playstation. That is even reflected in their name, and their persistent referal to Playstations as "computer entertainment systems", not "videogame systems". PS3 is just the most evolved form of that yet. In practical terms that simply boils down to a console that you might traditionally think of, that is adopting some quite desireable characteristics from the PC model, while maintaining the core advantages of a console. In how this practically affects you and me, I see a lot of upside, and very little downside.
Calling it a computer, to me, says nothing particularly unusual for a videogame system. However obviously in the context created by Sony in interviews etc. they see it as more than a videogame system, a computer in the stronger sense of something that inherits some of the characteristics of a PC. But not all. They're not saying it's a PC, in fact I don't think they ever have. They've drawn comparison with some elements for sure (those they have borrowed from that space), but it's clear they see some distinction themselves.
And this is not something new for Sony, as the suggestion that it's a reaction to the price for the sake of marketing concerns. SCE has always had a vision of a new type of "home computer", they've always talked in those terms with the Playstation. That is even reflected in their name, and their persistent referal to Playstations as "computer entertainment systems", not "videogame systems". PS3 is just the most evolved form of that yet. In practical terms that simply boils down to a console that you might traditionally think of, that is adopting some quite desireable characteristics from the PC model, while maintaining the core advantages of a console. In how this practically affects you and me, I see a lot of upside, and very little downside.
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