So is the cell spe's "downgrade" confirmed ?

[mckmas8808]

No, there are 7 functional SPEs on the PS3 cell, hence, whatever SPEs will be used by the OS or whatever, those will be sustracted from 7, not 8...

NO! It should be 1 of 8. Look.

- 1 SPE of 7 constantly reserved
- 1 SPE of 7 able to be "taken" by the OS at a moments notice (games have to give it up if requested)

Thats from http://www.ps3portal.com/?view=article&article=352&p=2

But it's not 1 SPE of 7 constantly reserved for redunacy. It's 1 of 8 reserved for redunacy. And after the OS SPE is taken away that makes 6 usable SPEs.

Where are you getting this?

but still for whatever reason up to 3 SPEs might not be available for gamming code...

Who has said that? Where was it said?

 

[Carl B]

But it's not 1 SPE of 7 constantly reserved for redunacy. It's 1 of 8 reserved for redunacy. And after the OS SPE is taken away that makes 6 usable SPEs.

I think where you're getting confused Mckmas is that you're reading the '1 SPE constantly reserved' as being the SPE that's being deactivated for yield purposes; but it's in fact refering to the SPE held by the OS. The SPE that's 'redundant' and for yields isn't 'reserved' at all - it's just plain deactivated.

So what's being said is that on top of the 1 SPE for the OS, the OS may at times call for useage of an additional SPE as well.

 

[wco81]

I don't mind features like chat, Location Free and so forth. In fact, it would be nice to be able to swap games without rebooting. And if browsing or IM programs allow file sharing so you can easily swap rosters or game saves, all the better.

But we'll have to see if the OS to offer all these features hogs too much resources from the game applications.

I don't see using the video chat (barely use the voice chat). Have a laptop near my console when I game online so AIM is fine. But having browsing/communication features in the console probably would be convenient to many people.

Just hope the tradeoffs aren't too severe.

 

[Platon]

But it's not 1 SPE of 7 constantly reserved for redunacy.

If you didn't put words into their mouths you would see that is not what they say at all. They say 1 out of seven is constantly reserved, period, not for redundancy. The constantly reserved mean by the OS, not yield issues. The one deactivated for yield issues has already been removed, hence the use of 7 instead of 8...

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Os Spe

I don't mind features like chat, Location Free and so forth. In fact, it would be nice to be able to swap games without rebooting. And if browsing or IM programs allow file sharing so you can easily swap rosters or game saves, all the better.

But we'll have to see if the OS to offer all these features hogs too much resources from the game applications.

I don't see using the video chat (barely use the voice chat). Have a laptop near my console when I game online so AIM is fine. But having browsing/communication features in the console probably would be convenient to many people.

Just hope the tradeoffs aren't too severe.

SPE for OS only is for

1) security purpose
2) other os purpose and use

extra SPE for OS "at moment's notice"

1) is not 1 full spe taken from game
2) is "secondary" background process only

So OS only have 1 dedicated SPE, every other OS use for SPE is background process

Now is PS3 CELL have 8 full power SPE or 7 full power SPE?

I feel PS3 CELL have 8 full power SPE and 1 is "reserved" for not "redundancy" (when did Sony make this statement?) but for Sony security. IBM engineer says original CELL only have 6 SPE design but Kutaragi wants 8 SPE because 8 is nice number and also Kutaragi wants 1 SPE for other purpose which IBM engineer did not know why. Also, PS3 can have 1 SPE dedication for "ultimate" security. So this is why I say PS3 CELL has full 8 SPE but 1 is for Sony security. So PS3 have 7 SPE for games but OS can have background use for extra SPE cycles.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think where you're getting confused Mckmas is that you're reading the '1 SPE constantly reserved' as being the SPE that's being deactivated for yield purposes; but it's in fact refering to the SPE held by the OS. The SPE that's 'redundant' and for yields isn't 'reserved' at all - it's just plain deactivated.

So what's being said is that on top of the 1 SPE for the OS, the OS may at times call for useage of an additional SPE as well.

Okay, so if this is true where has this information come from? We know that article started from talks and discussions that developed here. So why is it that nobody here has stated that only 5 SPEs are totally usable?

Where did this EXTRA news come from?

 

[London Geezer]

Okay, so if this is true where has this information come from? We know that article started from talks and discussions that developed here. So why is it that nobody here has stated that only 5 SPEs are totally usable?

Where did this EXTRA news come from?

From that article, this is pretty much the schematics i'm understanding:

PPE - fully usable
SPE 1 - fully usable
SPE 2 - fully usable
SPE 3 - fully usable
SPE 4 - fully usable
SPE 5 - fully usable
SPE 6 - "can be used when requested", meaning it will be used for games, but it can be given up at any time if the OS needs it (eg: pausing the game to bring up the OS Blade thing)
SPE 7 - "ALWAYS reserved" meaning games will never use it.
SPE 8 - "Disabled for redundancy" meaning games will never use it.


Or am i getting this wrong? Seems very simple, so i don't know why people are so confused.

What i was thinking, and i'm 10000% speculating, was that the 1 SPE disabled for redundancy was for a potential CELL chip released months ago. Maybe by the time this bloody thing gets released, the CELL manufacturing process will be mature enough to allow Sony to re-enable the 8th SPE, meaning we will have 8 SPEs back, with 7 fully usable after one is reserved for OS. But i'm just dreaming and to be honest i don't really care much, i just can't wait to play my next gen Final Fantasy and all sorts of games.

DISCLAIMER: I'm assuming the article is correct of course, i have no way of knowing it is actually true. We should really wait for official word.

 

[Pugger]

Why is everyone getting confused? One of the SPE's will be deactivated no matter what, it can never be used for anything. Basically the cell in PS3 in a 1-7 arrangement as for the amount of resources the OS takes up with regards to SPE and memory its best we listern to the guys actually working on the machine.

 

[one]

I feel PS3 CELL have 8 full power SPE and 1 is "reserved" for not "redundancy" (when did Sony make this statement?) but for Sony security.

FYI
http://www.us.playstation.com/Pressreleases.aspx?id=279

Cell Processor
PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz
1 VMX vector unit per core
512KB L2 cache
7 x SPE @3.2GHz
7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE
* 1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy
total floating point performance : 218
GFLOPS

Where did this EXTRA news come from?

Probably pulled from ps3portal's ass... and AFAICS in this thread this post by DopeyFish seems to be the culprit (with the wrong Xbox 360 figure, too)
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=735898&postcount=89

 

[expletive]

Well, I see where you're coming from Expletive, but we know it's not BR functionality that's eating these things up. DVR, in game video chat, Location Free streaming to TVs, PSPs, whatever... I mean it's cool potential despite the trade-offs. Again though, this is stuff that appeals to myself, where some people are definitely going to feel it's a waste.

But if the games come out 'great' still, will it be something that actually prevents someone from purchasing the console? Probably not - whereas their inclusion might entice some to buy the console.

I mean but again, I see both sides of the argument and where you're coming from.

Yep and i didnt literally mean just BR but more just 'all the stuff Sony wants to cram into the box besides games'.

I cant help but feel that there will be SO much competition for this media supply chain to the consumer, that its a huge gamble (and bad) for Sony. The more functionality they try to fit into the PS3, the more competition they bring upon themselves. Theyve now clearly squared off with apple as well becuase this type of capability is exactly what apple wants from the mini (plus theyre fighting MS and nintendo, PLUS toshiba...)

Also, theyre giving what they felt was a tech advantage for games, away. I shouldnt be surprised this is exactly how Sony always has done things.

 

[expletive]

SPE 6 - "can be used when requested", meaning it will be used for games, but it can be given up at any time if the OS needs it (eg: pausing the game to bring up the OS Blade thing)

Does the additiional SPE only get used when the user pauses the game to use the OS or is it on the OS' request? If its by the OS (i.e. someone starts encoding watching a movie on the PSP somewhere else) i dont see how devs can code with that SPE in mind?

 

[London Geezer]

Does the additiional SPE only get used when the user pauses the game to use the OS or is it on the OS' request? If its by the OS (i.e. someone starts encoding watching a movie on the PSP somewhere else) i dont see how devs can code with that SPE in mind?

Are you asking me? Ask the people who wrote the article I was just translating it for people who just didn't get it. I don't even know if the article is telling the truth anyway!

 

[expletive]

Are you asking me? Ask the people who wrote the article I was just translating it for people who just didn't get it. I don't even know if the article is telling the truth anyway!

Well, asking you as in the way you understood it to be. Your comment suggested a functionality based on some data and i didnt surmise the same after reading the article so i was wondering if youd read something additional. Understood that we dont have any concrete info at this point, just trying to see exactly what you meant and how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Phil]

Does the additiional SPE only get used when the user pauses the game to use the OS or is it on the OS' request? If its by the OS (i.e. someone starts encoding watching a movie on the PSP somewhere else) i dont see how devs can code with that SPE in mind?

If that were the case, people would be talking about 2 SPE's being reserved by the OS since anyone could "want to watch a DVD at any given instance". By differenciating the two, I think it's clear that only one SPE is absent at all times to game-developers while the other SPE will be requested at times when certain functions from the OS are called -> for instance calling the dash board and selecting a special feature that would prohibit you from playing the game during that time.

 

[London Geezer]

Well, asking you as in the way you understood it to be. Your comment suggested a functionality based on some data and i didnt surmise the same after reading the article so i was wondering if youd read something additional. Understood that we dont have any concrete info at this point, just trying to see exactly what you meant and how you came to that conclusion.

I came to that conclusion from what the article and some people were saying... Personally i have NO idea why they would have such a configuration. Look at me as a code breaker, not the source of the encoded message. I was pretty much summing it up for everyone. If it's all untrue, better for me.

I think even a whole SPE reserved for stuff that's not being used when playing a game is too much, but then again i'm not sure what the features are or whether these features are integrated into a game.

 

[Carl B]

Yep and i didnt literally mean just BR but more just 'all the stuff Sony wants to cram into the box besides games'.

I cant help but feel that there will be SO much competition for this media supply chain to the consumer, that its a huge gamble (and bad) for Sony. The more functionality they try to fit into the PS3, the more competition they bring upon themselves. Theyve now clearly squared off with apple as well becuase this type of capability is exactly what apple wants from the mini (plus theyre fighting MS and nintendo, PLUS toshiba...)

Also, theyre giving what they felt was a tech advantage for games, away. I shouldnt be surprised this is exactly how Sony always has done things.

I see what you're saying in the sense that the PS3 has now (or will) make itself a competitor to a number of different brands and devices, but I think it enjoys a position of strength in that it only has to do those tertiary jobs 'well enough' to earn consideration from the consumer as a viable alternative to an additional stand-alone purchase. If Sony can through PS3 wrap any percentage of it's user base into their overarching digital distribution model, well that's a win of sorts.

Again I don't see people not buying PS3 due to this resource drain, as it will still as a system have the exclusives resident on Playstation... and the loss of these SPEs aside, should still outperform 360 on certain gaming aspects such as physics and objects. Granted the RAM/bandwidth(?) drain might hurt it in other ways, where here we're really just focused on the SPE(s).

 

[ROG27]

I see what you're saying in the sense that the PS3 has now (or will) make itself a competitor to a number of different brands and devices, but I think it enjoys a position of strength in that it only has to do those tertiary jobs 'well enough' to earn consideration from the consumer as a viable alternative to an additional stand-alone purchase. If Sony can through PS3 wrap any percentage of it's user base into their overarching digital distribution model, well that's a win of sorts.

Again I don't see people not buying PS3 due to this resource drain, as it will still as a system have the exclusives resident on Playstation... and the loss of these SPEs aside, should still outperform 360 on certain gaming aspects such as physics and objects. Granted the RAM/bandwidth(?) drain might hurt it in other ways, where here we're really just focused on the SPE(s).

I don't see why people are really bent out of shape over this...everyone knew PS3 was going to have an OS, just like the Xbox 360. In relative terms, I'm sure that the OSes will utilize a similar amount of resources on both consoles, as their functionality will be similar. Having 192 Gflops available for games (218-26) is still roughly twice the amount of usable Gflops (or more?) than the X360 would have available for use after counting resources reserved for the OS. So, relative to the competition, things stay exactly the same on the CPU end. I'm sure bandwidth used will be very minimal while the OS is not fully active (running in the background). This is all standard stuff people seem to be jumping on because of lack of news.

 

[expletive]

Again I don't see people not buying PS3 due to this resource drain, as it will still as a system have the exclusives resident on Playstation... and the loss of these SPEs aside, should still outperform 360 on certain gaming aspects such as physics and objects. Granted the RAM/bandwidth(?) drain might hurt it in other ways, where here we're really just focused on the SPE(s).

I agree. A lot of people felt that the consumer wouldnt be able to tell the difference between the PS3 and 360 to begin with so theres no reason for that to change now. In the end they'll probably be, in terms of games, what Carmack said they would be months ago, comparable. (sorry, needed to give JC a plug here because he seems to have gotten a raw deal on here lately)

Seems like it might actually be about, *gasp*, the games!

 

[mckmas8808]

If that were the case, people would be talking about 2 SPE's being reserved by the OS since anyone could "want to watch a DVD at any given instance". By differenciating the two, I think it's clear that only one SPE is absent at all times to game-developers while the other SPE will be requested at times when certain functions from the OS are called -> for instance calling the dash board and selecting a special feature that would prohibit you from playing the game during that time.

Phil that part was MADE UP. Understand that article was created from conversations here at B3D. Nobody here (developer wise) has ever said that a second SPE will be used for special OS calls. That job would go to the first and only SPE reserved for the O.S.

 

[Barbarian]

Phil that part was MADE UP. Understand that article was created from conversations here at B3D. Nobody here (developer wise) has ever said that a second SPE will be used for special OS calls. That job would go to the first and only SPE reserved for the O.S.

Indeed. There has never been talk about second SPE for OS.
Incidently a similar heated debate is raging at the sony's private developer forums. Recently the OS 'cost' was officially confirmed so people are understandably a bit upset.