So is the cell spe's "downgrade" confirmed ?

[superguy]

Considering for a time we thought we were going to only get 256Mb total (early Xenon numbers), its not that bad

Heh, I often recall that figure. What a disaster if Microsoft had gone with that..

Talk about they would have MADE the PS3 the likely developer default in one fell swoop.

That number (256) always struck me as just, absurdly low for the power of the system. When the original 360 specs were leaked. Though it said "256+"

Personally I always wish somebody woul push RAM limits beyond "acceptable" compared to PC's for the time. AKA I'd love to see 1 GB in PS3 or X360. Or more likely, at least 768MB.

But I know, costs are crucial..

 

[Platon]

afaik

X360 uses 30% of core 2 (the third core). CELL has 1 SPE for redundancy, 1 SPE for dedicated OS use and 1 SPE for on-demand OS use (which means it can take priority over software running and use it)

Basically that leaves 5 SPEs +1 unreliable SPE since you can't count on it being there because it could break a game

Actually I have heard form someone else something similar, that the OS could use up to two SPEs, not just one, but I really wonder under what conditions that would be. I really can't see the OS hijacking a second SPE when a game is running causing all kinds of conflicts with the game that is currently using it.

The only reason that I can se the OS using a second SPE is if the game relys heavily on the OS so the OS will be using that SPE for gamming tasks. What would be intresting to know is how much the OS uses the PPE...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's hard to say. I don't know exactly what the background functionality will be, though I'd be concerned if they were planning on doing anything too heavy because that could have implications for available memory bandwidth (which is always in even shorter supply than memory space).

That's an important point. Gobbling up BW. That'll need to be reserved too. Sony had better make these extras something I care to have! Sounds like 15% of PS3 will be sitting idle most of the time!

And as Faf says, cross-platform games from XB360 are likely going to see cutbacks to the tune of 64 MB, which means lower quality...something.

 

[London Geezer]

That's an important point. Gobbling up BW. That'll need to be reserved too. Sony had better make these extras something I care to have! Sounds like 15% of PS3 will be sitting idle most of the time!

And as Faf says, cross-platform games from XB360 are likely going to see cutbacks to the tune of 64 MB, which means lower quality...something.

Well i think, if we look at history, and take their most recent product (PSP), i have to ask, is that huge chunk of memory that's been reserved for OS (is it a 3rd?) actually worth it? I don't have one, that's why i'm asking.
I don't think we should use PS2 as comparison, cause it's a bit too old now, while PSP is a portable, so i'm not sure we can make comparisons even with that...

 

[MrWibble]

Well i think, if we look at history, and take their most recent product (PSP), i have to ask, is that huge chunk of memory that's been reserved for OS (is it a 3rd?) actually worth it? I don't have one, that's why i'm asking.
I don't think we should use PS2 as comparison, cause it's a bit too old now, while PSP is a portable, so i'm not sure we can make comparisons even with that...

I wasn't so much using PS2 as a comparison (nor should we use PSP either), just mentioning that the OS reservered a chunk initially, but then requirements went down after Sony finalised the OS.

One thing I might expect to see, is that the ram requirements are only needed on a temporary basis. I don't really think any OS software will permanently need a huge chunk of memory, it'll just be while it does something - quite possibly at the game or users request. In that case, memory can be shared between game and OS, with both just using one area for temporary stuff. Maybe the game would have to be paused while the OS does it's business, but that's probably not a bad thing if it's popping up the OSD or something.

So the requirements might still be for the OS to have access to a big % of the memory, but 75% of it can be used by a game so long as it gives it back when asked nicely.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I wonder how that'd be swapped out? If the HDD is standard, no problem. If not, that area would have to be reserved for content on disk, and you would need loading on resuming the game. That could mean lag from the OS. Not much of an issue, and one every game is sure to prefer, but that might be something Sony are thinking about when weighing up what to reserve and not.

 

[MrWibble]

I wonder how that'd be swapped out? If the HDD is standard, no problem. If not, that area would have to be reserved for content on disk, and you would need loading on resuming the game. That could mean lag from the OS. Not much of an issue, and one every game is sure to prefer, but that might be something Sony are thinking about when weighing up what to reserve and not.

You don't use it for stuff that needs to be swapped, you use it for transient data.

Like building a draw-list, temporary buffers for streaming/decompression, cached data... anything that can be refreshed without an expensive reload. If you have a half-second pause while you reload it would be noticeable, but if it's just a couple of frames, probably not.

Only a certain amount of content can fall into that category, but it's probably enough to mitigate the cost of a reasonable reserved area. The OS would still need to have some memory permanently assigned but a lot can probably be shared.

 

[ROG27]

I've been lurking around the GAF boards today, and it's really sad to see how dev's words can be taken out of context. I don't blame anyone here for being apprehensive about sharing info. Now I fully understand the need for NDAs in this industry. I guess fans of opposing pieces of hardware have little fodder to chew on so they grasp for straws with anything they perceive as a negative, when in fact it could turn out to be a positive. Likely, it will turn out to be a little of both.

I figured the gamers at GAF to be a bit more mature, but as of recently, it seems they are just as childish as any other gaming forum on the internet. I hope this place doesn't go in that direction.

 

[ERP]

I wasn't so much using PS2 as a comparison (nor should we use PSP either), just mentioning that the OS reservered a chunk initially, but then requirements went down after Sony finalised the OS.

One thing I might expect to see, is that the ram requirements are only needed on a temporary basis. I don't really think any OS software will permanently need a huge chunk of memory, it'll just be while it does something - quite possibly at the game or users request. In that case, memory can be shared between game and OS, with both just using one area for temporary stuff. Maybe the game would have to be paused while the OS does it's business, but that's probably not a bad thing if it's popping up the OSD or something.

So the requirements might still be for the OS to have access to a big % of the memory, but 75% of it can be used by a game so long as it gives it back when asked nicely.

I don't know, I'm concerned what the resources are for.

They have enough to keep a second monitor operating at al times, doing none game related things, if that's true I have to worry about other resources and how they potentially impact execution. And how they deal with those features if you don't have a second monitor.

 

[Fafalada]

I don't know, I'm concerned what the resources are for.

Agreed, that's where I originally came up with the idea for the joke about reserved bits of GDDR bus

The excuse about seamless background execution fails the moment you start talking about running large sized graphic buffer(s) in "background/second screen".

So the requirements might still be for the OS to have access to a big % of the memory, but 75% of it can be used by a game so long as it gives it back when asked nicely.

Couldn't you just stick a nice chunk of cheap 8bit SDRam in there for swapping volatile buffers automatically if that's so important to Ken?
I would suggest just running OS entirely off slow memory (whoever heard of kernel reserving eDram until 2 years ago?) but I can understand some stuff needs fast memory, so swapping around volatile sections would be enough, and use less SDR too.

 

[MrWibble]

Couldn't you just stick a nice chunk of cheap 8bit SDRam in there for swapping volatile buffers automatically if that's so important to Ken?
I would suggest just running OS entirely off slow memory (whoever heard of kernel reserving eDram until 2 years ago?) but I can understand some stuff needs fast memory, so swapping around volatile sections would be enough, and use less SDR too.

I don't think anything comes quite cheap enough, compared to just making it the developers problem...

Any kind of per-unit cost is going to be a last resort. You can tell they've really cut corners when you look at the fact that it's only got 3 network ports, 2 hdmi ports, a multi-AV, 6 USB, every available memory card slot on the planet... oh.

Hmm... where else could we put our data.. maybe just hide a few hundred k in the bottom bits of the display buffer... we can pretend it's a film-grain filter effect...

 

[Fafalada]

Hmm... where else could we put our data.. maybe just hide a few hundred k in the bottom bits of the display buffer... we can pretend it's a film-grain filter effect...

That's pretty groovy idea actually - it would give all the games a platform exclusive grain pattern...
Oh oh, I have a great idea. Why not make a GPU that... can't write destination alpha and leave the 4th byte in all DWORDs reserved! - presto, 64MB extra memory.

 

[MrWibble]

That's pretty groovy idea actually - it would give all the games a platform exclusive grain pattern...
Oh oh, I have a great idea. Why not make a GPU that... can't write destination alpha and leave the 4th byte in all DWORDs reserved! - presto, 64MB extra memory.

Or have a high-speed network over power-line running that can store all the data on a remote server without the user ever knowing... (until they try to fit the PS3 in their car, or run it off a generator...)

 

[mrdarko]

Could someone please clarify how many spu's are avaliable to games?

I have just read that it is down to 5 spu's.(I thought it was six)

Thanks.

 

[Titanio]

Could someone please clarify how many spu's are avaliable to games?

I have just read that it is down to 5 spu's.(I thought it was six)

Sony's GDC presentation said 6. Even if one is partially used by the OS, that remains true. However I can't remember who first said that here (developer or just regular forum-goer).

 

[ROG27]

Could someone please clarify how many spu's are avaliable to games?

I have just read that it is down to 5 spu's.(I thought it was six)

Thanks.

On a Cell Processor, there are 8 SPEs + 1 PPE.

For use in the PS3, 1 of the 8 SPEs has been disabled to increase chip yields (meaning even if the chip that had one defective SPE, it could be used in the PS3).

If rumors are to be believed, 1 SPE (out of the 7 functional SPEs) is reserved for the OS, as well as a very small percentage utilization of the PPE.

If this is true, it would mean that 6 whole SPEs and most of the PPE would be available for gamecode, etc.

But it seems that Sony is still working on the OS and that they've just given devs a rough estimate of what resources might be allocated to it.

We still don't know what the OS is capable of...and whether or not it facilitates the running of an actual game by handling certain processes that would normally have to be programmed into gamecode.

 

[ban25]

I don't know, I'm concerned what the resources are for.

They have enough to keep a second monitor operating at al times, doing none game related things, if that's true I have to worry about other resources and how they potentially impact execution. And how they deal with those features if you don't have a second monitor.

Well, that explains what the 32 MB video memory is reserved for...

 

[mrdarko]

Thanks for the quick reply's titanio and ROG27.:smile:

 

[nAo]

That's pretty groovy idea actually - it would give all the games a platform exclusive grain pattern...
Oh oh, I have a great idea. Why not make a GPU that... can't write destination alpha and leave the 4th byte in all DWORDs reserved! - presto, 64MB extra memory.

NO WAY! I need those 8 bits!

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well, that explains what the 32 MB video memory is reserved for...

Don't tell me they're actually serious about this dual monitor thing...that's retarded.

Unless...is the idea that someone in another room in the house, could stream a video from the PS3 onto a 2nd display, while you play a game? Now THAT makes some sense...