So does NEC producing the R500 mean TSMC is providing a PPU?

[Brimstone]

The R500 and the eDRAM module are two different chips.

Where do you get that? (the leaked docs say otherwise)

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=505608#505608

I read this though in your link to the famous leaked specs.

Xenon is designed for high-definition output. Included directly on the GPU die is 10+ MB of fast embedded dynamic RAM (EDRAM). A 720p frame buffer fits very nicely here. Larger frame buffers are also possible because of hardware-accelerated partitioning and predicated rendering that has little cost other than additional vertex processing. Along with the extremely fast EDRAM, the GPU also includes hardware instructions for alpha blending, z-test, and antialiasing.

I'm leaning towards NEC is fabbing the complete GPU and the TSMC contract is for a PPU.

 

[j^aws]

The R500 and the eDRAM module are two different chips.

Where do you get that? (the leaked docs say otherwise)

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=505608#505608

I read this though in your link to the famous leaked specs.

Xenon is designed for high-definition output. Included directly on the GPU die is 10+ MB of fast embedded dynamic RAM (EDRAM). A 720p frame buffer fits very nicely here. Larger frame buffers are also possible because of hardware-accelerated partitioning and predicated rendering that has little cost other than additional vertex processing. Along with the extremely fast EDRAM, the GPU also includes hardware instructions for alpha blending, z-test, and antialiasing.

I'm leaning towards NEC is fabbing the complete GPU and the TSMC contract is for a PPU.

Well, follow the other thread with the discussion Jawed and I had about the die sizes too...and the diagram clearly shows two distinct chips...

Also could we keep this discussion in one thread please? i.e. the other thread? Thanks...and there's no PPU...Why are you ignoring all the Devs?

 

[Carl B]

I'm leaning towards NEC is fabbing the complete GPU and the TSMC contract is for a PPU.

If Microsoft is paying NEC to fab the GPU's, complete with eDRAM on-die, then they are going to be paying a pretty penny. I think the seperate 'chip' idea is more viable, with the main VPU probably being fabbed at TSMC.

By the way, the existing TSMC contract is for the system chipset, so if you were looking to that for confirmation of the PPU going in the system, I think we're going to need something more solid than that.

 

[one]

Well, follow the other thread with the discussion Jawed and I had about the die sizes too...and the diagram clearly shows two distinct chips...

They are just different blocks in SoC. The merits of eDRAM are a uber-wide bus bandwidth and cost reduction by eliminating separate DRAM chips. What's the reason to make them separate while employing NEC's integration technology?

From the PR:

The eDRAM graphics chip is manufactured in NEC Electronics' 300-millimeter (mm) wafer fabrication facility, which runs the company's most advanced processes.

and GameCube Flipper fabbed in NEC contains on-die 2MB frame/Z buffer and on-die 1MB texture cache as eDRAM blocks along with ATi-licensed logic units.

I guess TSMC will produce the CPU for Xbox 360.

BTW why was the earlier thread locked???

 

[j^aws]

Well, follow the other thread with the discussion Jawed and I had about the die sizes too...and the diagram clearly shows two distinct chips...

They are just different blocks in SoC. The merits of eDRAM are a uber-wide bus bandwidth and cost reduction by eliminating separate DRAM chips. What's the reason to make them separate while employing NEC's integration technology?

From the PR:

The eDRAM graphics chip is manufactured in NEC Electronics' 300-millimeter (mm) wafer fabrication facility, which runs the company's most advanced processes.

and GameCube Flipper fabbed in NEC contains on-die 2MB frame/Z buffer and on-die 1MB texture cache as eDRAM blocks along with ATi-licensed logic units.

I guess TSMC will produce the CPU for Xbox 360...

AAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There.

The pros and cons have been discussed in the other thread not only still on the first page but not only like 5 lines down but also been linked in this thread TWICE!

This threads about the friggin' PPU again. AGAIN!

Please keep the discussion of the separate eDRAM module in the other thread please... I hate repeating myself if you haven't got the hint yet!

BTW why was the earlier thread

locked???

Errr...no idea!

 

[BOOMEXPLODE]

I don't get it...what's the point of having "embedded" RAM if it's on a seperate chip...that sounds like just a memory chip connected with an external bus, which is how normal PC GPUs function anyway.

Please keep the discussion of the separate eDRAM module in the other thread please...

sorry

 

[Love_In_Rio]

I don't get it...what's the point of having "embedded" RAM if it's on a seperate chip...that sounds like just a memory chip connected with an external bus, which is how normal PC GPUs function anyway.

Because it is not only a memory chip, it is an antialiasing and filtering chip!

 

[one]

The pros and cons have been discussed in the other thread not only still on the first page but not only like 5 lines down but also been linked in this thread TWICE!

Well I just reiterated that 2-chip GPU = BS as vliw wrote in the other thread, in the light of this news about NEC It's a SoC.

 

[j^aws]

The pros and cons have been discussed in the other thread not only still on the first page but not only like 5 lines down but also been linked in this thread TWICE!

Well I just reiterated that 2-chip GPU = BS as vliw wrote in the other thread, in the light of this news about NEC It's a SoC.

Well, I've pretty much lost my sense of humour...


:?

EDIT:

Continued here,

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=506805#506805

 

[PC-Engine]

This announcement seems to indicate Xenon will not be using 1T-SRAM eDRAM like on GCN, but NEC's own inhouse eDRAM technology.

 

[Brimstone]

This announcement seems to indicate Xenon will not be using 1T-SRAM eDRAM like on GCN, but NEC's own inhouse eDRAM technology.

SUNNYVALE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 24, 2005--MoSys, Inc. (Nasdaq:MOSY - News), the industry's leading provider of high-density system-on-chip (SoC) embedded memory solutions announced today the renewal of the existing partnership with NEC Electronics to incorporate MoSys' 1T-SRAM® technologies into high volume semiconductor devices for consumer applications manufactured on NEC Electronics' 90nm process generation.



"Since the commencement of our original licensing agreement in March 1999, NEC Electronics has successfully deployed MoSys' 1T-SRAM because of its unique combination of performance, density and power capabilities not available from any other competing memory technologies," said Tom Nukiyama, senior technical director at NEC Electronics America. "We now look to extend our relationship with MoSys to jointly offer our ASIC customers requiring large quantities of high-performance embedded memory a compelling solution to enhance their consumer electronics SoC designs. The manufacturability of 1T-SRAM memory makes it the ideal technology for reducing costs and increasing quality, which is why, at the end of the day, we see it as the ultimate drop-in memory solution."

"We are pleased that NEC Electronics will continue to use our 1T-SRAM embedded memory technologies on even more aggressive processes," said Karen Lamar, vice president of Sales and Marketing at MoSys, Inc. "This combination of our unique memory architecture and NEC Electronics' most advanced semiconductor fabrication technology provides SoC designers with tremendous capability for their next generation of highly-integrated products."

NEC Electronics Embeds MoSys' 1T-SRAM Memory Technology in 90nm Custom ASIC



ATI used it in the Gamecube. That doesn't mean it will be used in the XB-360, but I think it has a decent chance from what we know so far.


I'm clearly missing Jaws conclusion that the leaked diagram indicates the GPU is two IC's. In writing it states otherwise.

Now the TSMC deal may just be for the SiS system chipset, but thinking about Ageia's coyness on the console PPU issue, I suspect something might materilize on this front.

Besides the NEC edram issue, I find it very intresting just a few weeks before this announcement, NEC released info on a patent deal with Rambus. I suspect that Rambus might be involved with the XB-360. At this point a pattern seems to be forming. At least thats how I observe current events.

 

[PC-Engine]

I'm guessing the Mosys licensing renewal is for Revolution since it has backwards compatibility with GCN. For some reason I don't think Xenon will use Mosys eDRAM, but NEC's inhouse eDRAM.

 

[Brimstone]

I'm guessing the Mosys licensing renewal is for Revolution since it has backwards compatibility with GCN. For some reason I don't think Xenon will use Mosys eDRAM, but NEC's inhouse eDRAM.

Why would Nintendo/NEC need MoSys for backwards compatibility? Ram just stores information.

 

[PC-Engine]

I'm guessing the Mosys licensing renewal is for Revolution since it has backwards compatibility with GCN. For some reason I don't think Xenon will use Mosys eDRAM, but NEC's inhouse eDRAM.

Why would Nintendo/NEC need MoSys for backwards compatibility? Ram just stores information.

Different signal timings ie it's easier to just use the same eDRAM devices that were used in GCN for backwards compatibity instead of using another type of eDRAM and try to get it to work exactly the same as the old eDRAM.

 

[Carl B]

Besides the NEC edram issue, I find it very intresting just a few weeks before this announcement, NEC released info on a patent deal with Rambus. I suspect that Rambus might be involved with the XB-360. At this point a pattern seems to be forming. At least thats how I observe current events.

I'm sure the Rambus thing has more to do with Nintendo or Sony than it does Microsoft. Remember that NEC is a long-time Nintendo partner, and there are rumors of Nintendo going Rambus this time around.

 

[PC-Engine]

Besides the NEC edram issue, I find it very intresting just a few weeks before this announcement, NEC released info on a patent deal with Rambus. I suspect that Rambus might be involved with the XB-360. At this point a pattern seems to be forming. At least thats how I observe current events.

I'm sure the Rambus thing has more to do with Nintendo or Sony than it does Microsoft. Remember that NEC is a long-time Nintendo partner, and there are rumors of Nintendo going Rambus this time around.

NEC has worked with Rambus since the N64. Elpida/NEC is manufacturing XDR for PS3.

 

[Carl B]

Besides the NEC edram issue, I find it very intresting just a few weeks before this announcement, NEC released info on a patent deal with Rambus. I suspect that Rambus might be involved with the XB-360. At this point a pattern seems to be forming. At least thats how I observe current events.

I'm sure the Rambus thing has more to do with Nintendo or Sony than it does Microsoft. Remember that NEC is a long-time Nintendo partner, and there are rumors of Nintendo going Rambus this time around.

NEC has worked with Rambus since the N64. Elpida/NEC is manufacturing XDR for PS3.

See well there ya go. I forgot about their stake in Elpida.

 

[Brimstone]

In other news, a San Jose Mercury article this week contained a detailed article on Sony’s ambitions for the PS3. The article also references Microsoft and Nintendo as saying they “won’t lag behind Sony on technology.†This assertion is consistent with what Elpida CEO Yukio Sakamoto told us last week in Tokyo: namely, that it was “more than a 100% certainty†that RMBS would be in next-generation gaming
systems. Because Samsung already is firmly entrenched as Sony’s DRAM supplier, Elpida is pursuing both Microsoft and Nintendo. In this regard, we believe the company should have more than enough capacity at its new 300mm wafer fab in Hiroshima to supplier both or either of these companies. While Elpida—along with its NEC and Hitachi parents—is an RDRAM licensee, there has been no announcement that the DRAM manufacturer has taken out a Yellowstone or Redwood license yet from RMBS.

http://www.brileyco.com/access/guest/viewdoc.asp?DocID=343

At the time of this report NEC didn't have a license, yet a few weeks before the NEC edram press release they acquire one and Elpida wanting Microsoft as a customer as quoted in this report. I think things are pointing at XDR is in the XB-360. Big win for Rambus if this happens.

 

[one]

In other news, a San Jose Mercury article this week contained a detailed article on Sony’s ambitions for the PS3. The article also references Microsoft and Nintendo as saying they “won’t lag behind Sony on technology.†This assertion is consistent with what Elpida CEO Yukio Sakamoto told us last week in Tokyo: namely, that it was “more than a 100% certainty†that RMBS would be in next-generation gaming
systems. Because Samsung already is firmly entrenched as Sony’s DRAM supplier, Elpida is pursuing both Microsoft and Nintendo. In this regard, we believe the company should have more than enough capacity at its new 300mm wafer fab in Hiroshima to supplier both or either of these companies. While Elpida—along with its NEC and Hitachi parents—is an RDRAM licensee, there has been no announcement that the DRAM manufacturer has taken out a Yellowstone or Redwood license yet from RMBS.

http://www.brileyco.com/access/guest/viewdoc.asp?DocID=343

At the time of this report NEC didn't have a license, yet a few weeks before the NEC edram press release they acquire one and Elpida wanting Microsoft as a customer as quoted in this report. I think things are pointing at XDR is in the XB-360. Big win for Rambus if this happens.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/02/09/news_6118242.html

Elpida president Yukio Sakamoto told Reuters that Sony plans to use 512Megabit XDR DRAM(s), with Rambus' interface technology, in the PS3.. He added that both Toshiba and Samsung will also produce DRAM chips for the console. Sakamoto revealed that Elpida is negotiating with Nintendo to produce DRAM chips for its next-generation console, code-named Revolution.

 

[pc999]

BTW see this

http://www.cgonline.com/content/view/451/2/

Computer Games - The next generation consoles are due to start coming out within a year. Is it too late for AGEIA's technology to be implemented in their console plans?

Curtis Davis - We cannot be in all of them, because some of the designs are already locked in.

This gives the impression that it will be in some.

BTW it is very diferent from

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1117/AGEIA-Technologies-Interview/p4/

Can you reveal (of course without telling us who the company is) if the PhysX PPU will be in any form inside at least one of the next generation consoles, or was it too late in the process to contribute to these upcoming products?

Manju Hegde: On this one, you will have to wait.

meybe because it is other person, meybe not.

It is just me or E3 is each time longer.