SDTV owners and next-gen systems - beware?

[Titanio]

Judging by reviews and reports on X360 games thusfar, it seems there may be a serious problem in the value presented to SDTV owners, or the most readily apparent value at least (graphics). According to many reviews, the games don't look much better at all than what current systems are pumping out, when viewed on a SDTV.

For example:

Visually, PGR3 is set up to look absolutely gorgeous when in 720p or 1080i. It's still pretty in 480p, but it looks more like an Xbox game to be honest. The high-def setting makes a world of difference.

And that's the rub: "...if you have a good HDTV." Playing NBA 2K6 on a standard-definition television results in a game that is difficult to distinguish from the regular Xbox version.

And these are amongst the best looking titles on the system sofar.

I've seen this touched upon in a couple of other threads, but I think this is a serious enough issue to warrant its own thread. This reminds me of many an argument over Bluray and next-gen DVD drives in next-generation systems - and the point from some that it simply isn't going to matter, because most of the market doesn't have HDTVs and won't care. But unfortunately it seems like that argument about value or lack of it to non-HDTV owners may be applied to an altogether more fundamental reason for a games system - the games themselves! If the games aren't going to look much or any different for a SDTV owner, do they not have the right to ask why these games aren't simply released for their existing systems? (Obviously there's more room for evolution than just graphics, but lets face it, that's primarily what people come to expect and look for in new systems).

Can devs do anything to mitigate this, and offer a worthwhile graphical leap for SDTV owners too? Will this change? It'd be quite something if Revolution games end up being better looking than X360 or PS3 games for most users, simply because devs are targetting the resolution they're playing at, versus a HD approach that gets washed out once you take out the resolution. Or is there a lesson here for Sony too regarding resolution policy?

 

[London Geezer]

It's quite obvious. The only way to make SD matierial look better is increasing the detail and realism you can see that doesn't depend on resolution (Think DVD videos).

Next gen games, or at least the ones we're seeing now, tackle the problem by increasing resolution, which is good for people with HDTVs, but doesn't change much for people with SDTVs who are getting a raw deal at the moment.

I think things will get better, but at the moment the quickest way to wow people is to increase resolution. Shame not many people can take advantage of that, especially in Europe.

Having said that, saying these next gen games look no better than current gen ones is pushing it though.

 

[Platon]

It isn't only resolution that increases with the next gen. Sure it is one of the really big sellingpoints, but still, with next gen you get more polys, because even on a SDTV you can see lots of poly edges in games today, better lighting, which I think is what will really set apart the next gen games from games today, at least I hope so, and generally many effects that will add a lot to games e.g. paralex mapping and so on that don't really need HDTV to be enjoyed. So for sure even the SDTV owners gets lots of benefits from next gen, at least I hope since I am one of them and I am not getting a HDTV anytime in the near future, maybe the gen after this...

 

[Pozer]

Advances in gfx have been going in the wrong direction for awhile thanks to the benchmark rabid following of video cards. We're to blame because the only thing anyone cares about a new gpu is how fast it is at 1600x1200 4xAA 16xAF.

When all along we needed smarter pixels and not more of them.

 

[Titanio]

Having said that, saying these next gen games look no better than current gen ones is pushing it though.

That's the claim as far as SDTVs go, that it's not much better. IGN and Gamespot have sprinkled reviews with these warnings, seemingly, and it's hitting the mainstream press too. There's a USA Today article out there now, that seems to paraphrase the Official Xbox Magazine's editor as saying that graphics are only "marginally" better on a SDTV versus current systems.

I join you in hope regarding the rest of your comments though. Personally it doesn't matter much as I have a HD projector, but I think I'm very surprised at the apparent results on a SDTV, and the implications for the wider market. I don't envy MS having to deal with this first.

 

[Corwin_B]

I think it may be a bit premature to judge the interest or lack thereof of upgrading to next-gen consoles for people with SDTV based on a couple of (always somewhat rushed) launch games. If you were to scale down the MGS4 trailer, or GoW sequences, to 640x480, it would still blow out every current gen title out of the water.

 

[London Geezer]

It isn't only resolution that increases with the next gen. Sure it is one of the really big sellingpoints, but still, with next gen you get more polys, because even on a SDTV you can see lots of poly edges in games today, better lighting, which I think is what will really set apart the next gen games from games today, at least I hope so, and generally many effects that will add a lot to games e.g. paralex mapping and so on that don't really need HDTV to be enjoyed. So for sure even the SDTV owners gets lots of benefits from next gen, at least I hope since I am one of them and I am not getting a HDTV anytime in the near future, maybe the gen after this...

Better lighting is one of the biggest aspects of getting next gen games to look radically different from last generation ones. Also it would be nice to have the X360 apply copious amounts of AA when outputting 480i/p and so far i have heard nothing about how that is handled.
A 480i/p image with lots of AA on a normal CRT TV would look very nice. Obviously not HD but much better than the jaggie-fest of last gen games.
Still, it's the content that needs to be a lot more detailed, and the majority of the time that doesn't really depend on the hardware, but on what the developers put in the game.

 

[London Geezer]

That's the claim as far as SDTVs go, that it's not much better. IGN and Gamespot have sprinkled reviews with these warnings, seemingly, and it's hitting the mainstream press too. There's a USA Today article out there now, that seems to paraphrase the Official Xbox Magazine's editor as saying that graphics are only "marginally" better on a SDTV versus current systems.

I join you in hope regarding the rest of your comments though. Personally it doesn't matter much as I have a HD projector, but I think I'm very surprised at the apparent results on a SDTV, and the implications for the wider market. I don't envy MS having to deal with this first.

What this means is that more and more people will start buying HD sets. Then add the ones who will buy one for PS3, then for HDDVD, then for Bluray, then for HD broadcasts finally starting in Europe... Otherwise no one would buy them.
Someone's got to push the herd afterall.

 

[Hardknock]

Well to be fair we're also getting reports of the opposite Titanio:

Gamespot on COD2:

The game's graphics are also excellent, whether you play on an HDTV or a regular TV.

Most importantly, though, Call of Duty 2 on the Xbox 360 runs buttery smooth--even smoother than the PC version did for us in a lot of cases. Areas and situations that would cause most PCs to hitch up run perfectly fine on the Xbox 360 version. If you play on a non-HDTV, you do lose some of the sharpness and detail. But the game still looks better than just about any shooter we've played on a regular Xbox

Gamespot on Kameo:

Loading times are minimal and the game hums along at a nice, steady frame rate, despite how much seems to be happening onscreen at any given moment. And it all looks markedly impressive on a standard television. But again, as will likely be the case with most any Xbox 360 game, you really need to see Kameo: Elements of Power running on a 720p high-definition display to truly appreciate its visuals.

 

[Titanio]

It isn't only resolution that increases with the next gen. Sure it is one of the really big sellingpoints, but still, with next gen you get more polys, because even on a SDTV you can see lots of poly edges in games today, better lighting, which I think is what will really set apart the next gen games from games today, at least I hope so, and generally many effects that will add a lot to games e.g. paralex mapping and so on that don't really need HDTV to be enjoyed. So for sure even the SDTV owners gets lots of benefits from next gen, at least I hope since I am one of them and I am not getting a HDTV anytime in the near future, maybe the gen after this...

This is all true, but it would seem to make sense that any per-pixel effect is at risk of "dilution" with a resolution drop. I'm just surprised it's to the point of virtually nullifying differences relative to current systems, even for the launch titles (I mean PGR3 looks damn good at high def!)

Reminds me of the RE5 devs saying that they needed high-def to pull off the effects they wanted to do, which attracted some scepticism at the time - maybe they were really serious?

Well to be fair we're also getting reports of the opposite Titanio:

Gamespot on COD2:





Gamespot on Kameo:

That's reassuring for the future, I hope. But if a significant proportion of the games don't offer this value, it remains a serious problem. It's perhaps not coincidental that apparently, for example, Kameo uses a specific standard def framebuffer if outputting to a SDTV?

 

[Bill]

Wait..I thought graphics didn't matter?

 

[London Geezer]

Will you just stop making posts like that?

 

[Bill]

Multi-post.

 

[Bill]

Well I'm bitter after being shouted down about graphics being the most important thing in gaming.

Then everybody bashes X360 graphics 24/7.

 

[London Geezer]

You only post to provoke people. This thread is about graphics, and about a certain aspect of it. If you have nothing to contribute, don't post.

 

[dopefishzzz]

Honestly, is there any one, looking seriously at the X360, that will play it on a SDTV ?

I mean, those box got the same resolution since what, 1950? Don't you think you'd be better of upgrading to a HDTV, or use your computer monitor ? You can't expect much more for your old SD box..

I saw HDTV's for less than 500$.

You already have a computer monitor.

Give the damn XBOX360 a chance !

XBOX360 + SDTV is like running a porsche with 87 octane gaz. You CAN'T expect very good results.

Dump that old SD Box ... you'll have to do it sooner or later anyway

 

[fearsomepirate]

A racing game may be the wrong place to compare. I kinda feel like that this gen, racing games got damn near close to photorealism on SD sets, even on the PS2. Sure, you still had texture shimmering on the PS2 and jaggies on all consoles, but there just isn't a whole lot farther to go in terms of image quality...seems like all that's left is getting rid of all the jaggies and increasing the resolution (esp b/c you're constantly looking into the horizon). Also, in racing games, the games look far, far better in all the weird camera angles and close-ups in the devshots. Nothing is quite so noticable from a cockpit or chasecam view. In more traditional games, I think there's a whole lot room to improve in terms of lighting, texturing, and polygon counts. That's probably why they're saying COD2 and Kameo look really good on an SD set.

Maybe they could design the Revo to run at a maximum of 600xwhatever with an upscaling chip. That would be a good idea.

 

[Titanio]

Well I'm bitter after being shouted down about graphics being the most important thing in gaming.

I wasn't one of those doing so, so take your prattle outside of my thread, please.

This is about the justification of the necessity of new hardware for a large part of the market - in which graphics is probably the most important motivation - not some debate over gameplay vs graphics.

 

[London Geezer]

Honestly, is there any one, looking seriously at the X360, that will play it on a SDTV ?

I mean, those box got the same resolution since what, 1950? Don't you think you'd be better of upgrading to a HDTV, or use your computer monitor ? You can't expect much more for your old SD box..

I saw HDTV's for less than 500$.

You already have a computer monitor.

Give the damn XBOX360 a chance !

XBOX360 + SDTV is like running a porsche with 87 octane gaz. You CAN'T expect very good results.

Dump that old SD Box ... you'll have to do it sooner or later anyway

Uhm the majority or the people out there today have SDTVs. In the X360 lifetime, i guess many of those will upgrade, but today things are still vastly SD in the majority of households.
And if you look at Europe, the situation is even worse.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's the claim as far as SDTVs go, that it's not much better. IGN and Gamespot have sprinkled reviews with these warnings, seemingly, and it's hitting the mainstream press too. There's a USA Today article out there now, that seems to paraphrase the Official Xbox Magazine's editor as saying that graphics are only "marginally" better on a SDTV versus current systems.

I join you in hope regarding the rest of your comments though. Personally it doesn't matter much as I have a HD projector, but I think I'm very surprised at the apparent results on a SDTV, and the implications for the wider market. I don't envy MS having to deal with this first.

That's just nonsense journalism IMO. The improvements of next-gen aren't just the same graphics at higher resolutions. Everything's in much better quality. The difference between watching SD games on a large HD set and HD games on a large HD set will be pronounced, and I'm guessing given that obvious difference the more subtle differences of the other graphical effects are being overlooked. Look at PGR3's crowds on an SD set and tell me it looks like the current-generation's typical bill-boarded people.

I think a better comparison would be to run HD and SD resolutions on small screens, and say how much difference there is.