RV560/570 Gemini roadmap

[AlNom]

Looks like a mess right now, hopefully they are able to sort out the nomenclature for the next round of gpus.

Maybe they'll get some of those marketers from AMD to help out with the numbering.

Seriously though, I think they should consider naming the different classes of GPUs as AMD and Intel do with their CPUs (Celeron/Duron/Sempron vs Athlon 64/P4/Core/Core 2 etc). That way they, at least, double up on the useable "umpteeth-hundred" and don't have to rely so heavily upon suffixes.

 

[Arty]

I agree it's harder for us to talk about, e.g. trying to remember that X1300XT is really RV535, not RV516...

I'm sure there'll be a nice 3DMk06 graphic of the relative performance of all these. That'll straighten us out

Jawed

Well this is the first time they are bringing in their four-pronged attack, so I/we kind of expected it to be confusing.

Maybe they'll get some of those marketers from AMD to help out with the numbering.

Seriously though, I think they should consider naming the different classes of GPUs as AMD and Intel do with their CPUs (Celeron/Duron/Sempron vs Athlon 64/P4/Core/Core 2 etc). That way they, at least, double up on the useable "umpteeth-hundred" and don't have to rely so heavily upon suffixes.

The different class naming scheme sounds good.

 

[trumphsiao]

Some more info at HKEPC:

RV570 - X1950Pro
12 pipelines - 36 pixelshaderengines
600Mhz core
1400Mhz mem
256-bit memory interface
Internal CrossFire

RV560 - X1650XT
8 pipelines - 24 pixelshaderengines
600Mhz core
1400Mhz mem
128-bit memory interface
Internal CrossFire

RV530XT/RV535XT - X1650Pro
RV530Pro/RV535Pro - X1300XT

So it seems like the X1600Pro is being rebranded to X1300XT.

http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=637016
http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=637104

The final price lineup is also interesting:

X1950XTX €399
X1900XT256 €249 - €299
X1950Pro €199 - €249
X1650XT €149 - €199
X1650Pro €99 - €119
X1300XT €79 - €99
X1300Pro €69
X1300CE €49

I heard die size of RV570 is less than 2XXmm^2 . It's time for AMD Radeon .

 

[Geo]

I heard die size of RV570 is less than 2XXmm^2 . It's time for AMD Radeon .

Well, if it's 512-bit, as reported, it will be interesting to see just how much less.

 

[trumphsiao]

Well, if it's 512-bit, as reported, it will be interesting to see just how much less.

you mean internal 512bit , external 256bit memory controller ???

 

[no-X]

I heard die size of RV570 is less than 2XXmm^2 . It's time for AMD Radeon .

R580 = 352mm2
80nm: up to 19% smaller = 295mm2
removed quad (1 from 4): up to 20% (?) smaller: 245mm2 (or 265mm2 = conservative numbers)

...and what about the improved compositing engine? How many tranzistors or die-space could it consume?

 

[CJ]

According to HKEPC the die-size of RV570 is very similar to R580+.

Radeon X1950 Pro is the first GPU with build-in Compositing CrossFire Engine, therefore there are nomore master/salve card. With the build-in engine, the die size is similar to R580+ although it has less pinelines than R580.

Now, the question is... is R580+ built on 80nm like RV570 or is it still using the 90nm process?

 

[trumphsiao]

According to HKEPC the die-size of RV570 is very similar to R580+.



Now, the question is... is R580+ built on 80nm like RV570 or is it still using the 90nm process?

If we divest Low-K and 1 dispatch (12 ALUs) from R580 and then based on 80nm process it will gradually give you 6X% of R580 die size in turn.

 

[no-X]

I have one stupid question Did anybody noticed the sentence "Full-speed HDR with AA" in RV560-slide? RV570 and R580+ slides says only "HDR support with AA". Is it only a mistake, or marketing BS, or could it indicate something? Is it even possible to do full-speed HDR with (MS)AA with todays architectures (no EDRAM, no tile-based rendering...)?

 

[Jawed]

I have one stupid question Did anybody noticed the sentence "Full-speed HDR with AA" in RV560-slide? RV570 and R580+ slides says only "HDR support with AA". Is it only a mistake, or marketing BS, or could it indicate something? Is it even possible to do full-speed HDR with (MS)AA with todays architectures (no EDRAM, no tile-based rendering...)?

Hmm, that might indicate a "double-rate ROP" capability that's similar to RV530. The latter is described as 4-1-3-2 and this would imply RV560 is 8-1-3-2.

If so, groovy.

Jawed

 

[CJ]

Just got word that R580+ is still made on the 90nm lowk process. So it's die-size will still be the same as before. Makes you think about RV570 die size doesn't it?

 

[INKster]

I have one stupid question Did anybody noticed the sentence "Full-speed HDR with AA" in RV560-slide? RV570 and R580+ slides says only "HDR support with AA". Is it only a mistake, or marketing BS, or could it indicate something? Is it even possible to do full-speed HDR with (MS)AA with todays architectures (no EDRAM, no tile-based rendering...)?

Full-speed and HDR (on mainstream parts) are not two things that belong in the same sentence, at least not for now.
Full-speed+HDR and MSAA is even worse.

It's a lovely feature for the marketing guys, but, like programable shaders in DX8, it's something set for widespread adoption only when the next generation API hits the market (in this case, DirectX 10).

 

[Arty]

Just got word that R580+ is still made on the 90nm lowk process. So it's die-size will still be the same as before. Makes you think about RV570 die size doesn't it?

Thanks.

Wasnt the 80nm version R590 (if one existed) and not R580+. Or was the RV570 confused with the R590? Goes in line with Dailytech's piece that R590 would end up as X1900GTO.

 

[CJ]

Thanks.

Wasnt the 80nm version R590 (if one existed) and not R580+. Or was the RV570 confused with the R590? Goes in line with Dailytech's piece that R590 would end up as X1900GTO.

There was an R590 on old roadmaps that showed it as optional. I think it's quite possible that this was supposed to be a 80nm version of R580. MSI also had a roadmap that showed a R580XTP for release in the July/August timeframe. This R580XTP sounds more like the R580+, basically being a R580 paired to GDDR4.

R590 was never intended to be X1900GTO afaik. If you take a look at some early samples of the X1900GT, you will see that they are labeled as "X1900GTO" and those obviously use the R580 cores. ATi just changed the name at last minute to GT instead of GTO.

This makes me wonder even more about ATi's name schemes. They could have just as well called the RV570 "X1900GTO" since it's faster than the X1900GT, just like the X800GTO was faster than the X800GT.. but then again the X800GTO had 4 more pipelines than the X800GT whereas the X1900GT and X1950Pro have the same config. Ah well, I'll never understand their nameschemes. So I give up.

A bit offtopic here... but....

It also seems that the rebranding of the RV530XT from X1600XT to X1650Pro and RV530Pro to X1300XT is because of really 'bad sales' of the X1600XT/Pro. It seems that ATi has a lot of those cores left in stock and is trying to get rid of them this way. The new SKUs will be ready in August, but it won't be until the October/November timeframe that AIBs will start using the RV535XT core for the X1650Pro and the RV535Pro core for the X1300XT. ATi wants to clear all old 90nm stock before going to the 80nm cores.

And supposedly RV516 has been sneaking up on us. It seems that RV516 is already used in X1300Pros. RV516 is listed as an improved 90nm version of RV515. And also coming in December is RV550, which is the counter to nVidia's G73-B1. It will add HDMI Signal Mixing and handles worst case Blue Ray/HD DVD on GPU - 40Mbps + CABAC (Context-adaptive binary arithmetic coding).

RV505 will see the light in September/October, gradually replacing the RV515 as the X1300Pro. The RV505CE will be the lowest end chip that will probably be released first (even in 32-bit versions) and will most probably be known as the X1250.

 

[Sunrise]

It also seems that the rebranding of the RV530XT from X1600XT to X1650Pro and RV530Pro to X1300XT is because of really 'bad sales' of the X1600XT/Pro. It seems that ATi has a lot of those cores left in stock and is trying to get rid of them this way. The new SKUs will be ready in August, but it won't be until the October/November timeframe that AIBs will start using the RV535XT core for the X1650Pro and the RV535Pro core for the X1300XT. ATi wants to clear all old 90nm stock before going to the 80nm cores.

RV530 (and it´s SKUs based on it) didn´t sell bad, actually it´s rather the contrary. If you listened to all CCs (we have some transcripts here that may help) ATi was so excited by the demand of it that they "may have jumped a little too far with wafer orders", which can lead to some inventory hangover if sales have substancially weakened in the meantime, but that´s just a side-note really.

We already discussed the R590 story and it surely was an option very early in the beginning, but not "worth it", considering they are also working very hard on R600 and why not use your already built up inventory and pair it with GDDR4 until R600 arrives. It will clear a lot of the inventory, while customers will surely appreciate the fact that the price is very good and they´ve also made a good step towards more silent operation.

EDIT: Typos fixed.

 

[CJ]

RV530 (and it´s SKUs based on it) didn´t sell bad, actually it´s rather the contrary. If you listened to all CCs (we have some transcripts here that may help) ATi was so excited by the demand of it that they "may have jumped a little too far with wafer orders", which can lead to some inventory hangover if sales have substancially weakened in the meantime, but that´s just a side-note really.

I just quoted what the same source who came up with the performance numbers of RV560/RV570 back in February said. He was right on multiple occasions before (like G71 having the exact same config as G70 when everyone else thought it would be a 32 pipes card). So I tend to believe him when he says the RV530XT/Pro didn't sell all too well. He talked about some dirty marketing tricks when it came to the rebranding of the RV530XT/Pro.

 

[Sunrise]

So I tend to believe him when he says the RV530XT/Pro didn't sell all too well. He talked about some dirty marketing tricks when it came to the rebranding of the RV530XT/Pro.

Your source is a good one to hold on, that´s for sure. (but i think i already told you that. :smile

I´m just not really convinced why Orton should lie when he said that "X1600" has had "incredible demand" in Q1/Q2 2006. Either this was some kind of an exaggerated fact, your source is wrong or there has been a substancial inventory built-up in the meantime, there aren´t to many possibilities i can think of.

 

[Arty]

R590 was never intended to be X1900GTO afaik. If you take a look at some early samples of the X1900GT, you will see that they are labeled as "X1900GTO" and those obviously use the R580 cores. ATi just changed the name at last minute to GT instead of GTO..

My suggestion was more on the lines that could Dailytech have mistaken the RV570 to be R590 given the info:

"Radeon X1950 Pro is the first GPU with build-in Compositing CrossFire Engine, therefore there are nomore master/salve card. With the build-in engine, the die size is similar to R580+ although it has less pinelines than R580."

 

[Rolf N]

It isn't super-relevant but IMO there just aren't enough options for X1600 boards. MSI is the only sensible choice for the XT IMO, but if you need a VGA port you're not going to be totally happy with that either. The reference cooler is a pretty hefty proposition while the passively cooled cards are all incredibly bulky.

Totally anecdotal now ... I really wanted to have an x1600XT card but I ultimately decided on a Sparkle 7600GS. It's a single-slot passively cooled card with a VGA output, plus it had a reasonable pricetag. If the same kind of thing existed in an x1600 version, I'd have bought that, even if it were, say, 30% more expensive.

So yeah, if it really is true that x1600s aren't selling well, I think I can understand why.

 

[no-X]

Full-speed and HDR (on mainstream parts) are not two things that belong in the same sentence, at least not for now.
Full-speed+HDR and MSAA is even worse.

It's a lovely feature for the marketing guys, but, like programable shaders in DX8, it's something set for widespread adoption only when the next generation API hits the market (in this case, DirectX 10).

It's not full-speed HDR and MSAA, but full-speed HDR with MSAA. I think it's a bit different. The second one sounds like MSAA doesn't cause additional performance hit when using HDR, so HDR can run at the same speed (=full-speed) even with MSAA enabled. I know it sounds pretty stupid and it's probably not possible on todays GPUs, but it reminds me 3Dfx Rampage and its free AA when using multi-texturing. But HDR and MSAA are both bandwidth demanding, so free AA with HDR is probably a mere vision...