Revolutions, nay The Matrix Trilogy, didn't make sense?

Natoma

Veteran
I posted this about an hour ago at MFN and I'm just c&p'ing it here. :)

You can read the original thread if you're interested, here:

http://forums.matrixfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19832

I want to start off by saying thanks to everyone who read my ideas on Reloaded at Corona and the MFN Reloaded Forum and enjoyed what I had to say. I’ve had the pleasure of talking with many of you at Corona, here at MFN, and on the various IM mediums over the past few months.

After seeing Revolutions, I can honestly say that “The Matrix†trilogy is the most brilliantly conceived and executed set of films ever put on screen. For all their flaws and shortcomings, and there are many, it cannot be argued that the ambitiousness and never before seen amalgamation of so many disparate ideas and conceptions have left us with an unbelievable film legacy. People don’t think “The Matrix†trilogy will have staying power. However, I believe that people today simply do not see the trilogy for what it has attempted and done within the confines of our available body of film work.

Matrix Reloaded left me with headaches. It has taken me months to let the movie sink in and reflect on what it brought to the table. Matrix Revolutions hasn’t left me with headaches. On the contrary, it has left me with a feeling of completion and relief that everything that happened in the film had to happen the way it did, and could not have happened in any other way.

This is how I wanted to make my Reloaded post, but I was so overwhelmed by everything that I simply couldn’t think about all of the concepts and ideas at once, so I cut it short to one question, i.e., why can Neo see the future? My interpretation of that was the overarching theme of Reincarnation and Nirvana present in Buddhism, and in part present in Hinduism and Christianity. If The Matrix was overwhelming Hindu, with a touch of Christianity and Buddhism, and Reloaded was Buddhist, with a touch of Christianity and Hinduism, Revolutions is certainly Christian, with a touch of Buddhism and Hinduism.

This is a pretty big mind dump for me. I wanted to include all possible questions that I could think of that the trilogy left me with, and questions that I’ve seen asked here and on other forums. I’m trying for a grand unifying theme of everything basically. It may not work out as I hoped and there may be stumbles here and there, but I hope the overarching themes and principles get across well. With that said, I’ll get to it.

1) What is Smith?

Smith is purely Ego. He is, at the end of Revolutions, not only his own ego as manifested by his never ending replication, but the ego of the machines, the ego of God, the ego of Satan.

One could think of the machines as God and Satan in one, good and evil simultaneously. In many religions, the brilliance of good automatically creates the darkness of evil. When you turn on a light, shadow is created as the darkness retreats. It is not something that can be helped, it merely is. When everything is darkness, as it was in the beginning of Christian creation, there is no evil. If the entire world is the same, there can be no bar to judge what is good and what is evil. Once the light, i.e. knowledge, power, et al, is shone upon the world, the darkness is then realized as evil and it retreats. In many cases, it coalesces into a singular being. In many religions, that being is all powerful, the antithesis of god; the bringer of destruction and death, the shadow of god.

How does this tie into Smith? Smith is the negative of Neo. He is Neo’s antithesis. He and his power were created merely by the existence of Neo’s overwhelming power. He is the end result of the equation trying to balance itself out. In order for the world to be rid of Smith’s ego, his evil, Neo must be destroyed. That will in turn unbalance the equation and destroy Smith, which is precisely what happened at the end.

In Christianity, Smith is analogous to Satan. Satan was once known as Lucifer, i.e. The Morning Star. Smith/Lucifer was thrown out of the machine world/heaven by the Perfect Machines/God once his ego became too large, and thus he began destroying everything he could within the matrix/creation. Smith’s ego dictated that he had to destroy Neo. He was compelled to do so. He could no longer exist in the perfect machine world in such a state, and thus was cast out and returned to the imperfect world of the Matrix.

Satan tried to kill Christ many times. He "infected" thousands of the Romans and Jews with his hatred and evil in order to do it when direct confrontation, the temptations of Christ, didn't work. When he finally got his wish, he could not have known that Christ would become even more powerful in death and that it would seal Satan’s doom. Satan could not see past his purpose, i.e. to destroy god's creation, to end all life. Because of this, he could not see that the death of Christ at the hands of those he had infected with his evil was in fact his own doom. Smith parallel’s Satan’s fall quite well.

How is Smith then the ego of the machines? Smith was created by the machines. He is the manifestation of their perfect hubris, the belief that they are completely superior beings and therefore have every right to create and enslave humankind. Their hubris is that they are in fact bringing good to the world by keeping humanity locked away. They cannot express hubris in a form that humanity could understand, or that they themselves could understand. But when it is touched by humanity within the confines of the matrix, infected if you will, it morphs into a form that we can understand and identify, i.e. Ego, i.e. the endlessly replicating Smith.

Smith is also the ego of God in a similar way that he is the ego of the machines. God, being a perfect being in its own mind, could have no other choice but to have an ego. When you can look upon a creation and see no flaw, no fault, and say “It is goodâ€, there is a sense of pride and ego that one naturally expresses. It is the sense of joy and completion that it is inherent in every being, even one that knows nothing but perfection. Ego in and of itself is not a bad thing. Ego, when controlled, is what we call pride, and pride, when controlled, is a powerful force that can lead one to hone their skills, take care of their children, fix their homes, et al. How did ego in this case become corrupted? It happened when it came in contact with humanity. It happened when it came in contact with choice. God has no other choice but to be perfect, to be good. However, when God created humanity, and gave humanity the choice to be good or evil, the repercussions of that choice infected all of creation and even God itself. The manifestations of this are a “perfect†god’s rage, anger, jealousy, and destructive impulses. The Floods spoken about in nearly every religion are one such manifestation of this. The only way to abate this rage, this anger, these destructive impulses, was to offer up sacrifices in order to balance the world again and set things right. However, they were only temporary.

That leads directly into #2.

2) Who is Neo and what do his prior 5 incarnations, a Buddhist/Hindu theme, have to do with Christianity?

The deaths of the prior 5 ones/false christs and the prior 5 Zions were analogous to the sacrifices, both human and animal, in the old testament which were meant to atone for the sins of the human race and stay god's wrath for a little while longer in order to preserve the overall human race and the world. This is analogous to the prior 5 ones giving up their lives in order to rebalance the Matrix and keep it, i.e. "The World", from destroying itself.

Unfortunately those deaths/sacrifices were only temporary, and eventually, after a buildup of new sins/equation imbalances, more deaths/sacrifices would be required. Jesus/Neo was the perfect sacrifice in order to end this cycle of death and set everyone free, permanently, with the new variable of "Love". Jesus/Neo introduced "Love" into the equation, instead of death/sacrifice, which was what was required in the past. The Oracle did indeed engineer Neo and Trinity's Love, as she knew that that would be the ingredient required to finally end the war, as the other false Christs could not have done.

The Trinity of Morpheus (The Father), Neo (The Son), and Trinity (The Holy Spirit, i.e. Love) was destroyed in Revolutions, as was Christ's physical body on the cross. But the result of the physical destruction of the trinity, the release of "Love" into the equation, balanced the world and finally set everyone free.

3) Who is The Oracle, and what does she have to do with anything outside of Greek myth?

The Oracle is also a christ figure. Christ was the perfection of god, wrapped up in the imperfections of humanity, in order to understand humanity and in essence, save humanity in a way the paternal "god" figure, the spirit, could not. In this vein, the Oracle is the machine christ. The Oracle spawns from the perfection of the machines, wrapped up in the imperfections of humanity, i.e. the Architect's allusion to the "mind less bound by the parameters of perfection", in order to make the world more perfect and good for the machines.

"I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."

God/Machines created Eden/Matrix for Humanity. Obviously God/Machines did not understand that humanity would never accept that perfect world or God/Machines would have never created it. Through the ages, the humans and god reached a balance through the use of sacrifices/â€The One†that would keep the world running. However the time came where this was no longer good enough and something had to change, thus Jesus Christ. In this fashion, both the Oracle and Neo can be Christ, depending on one's point of view.

4) Why does all of Neo’s fights with Smith end in draws? Why doesn’t someone win already?

Smith and Neo can never beat one another permanently, ever. At every stage of the trilogy, they are in close balance. In the first movie, Smith is far more powerful than Neo, but Neo eventually grows to oppose him. Smith kills Neo, then Neo comes back to life and kills Smith. Smith comes back to life and instead of being singularly powerful enough to take down Neo in Reloaded, he replicates to oppose him. See the Burly Brawl. Eventually, both become so powerful that they are again on one level with each other. If the lesser Smiths had tried to fight Neo, they would have lost.

Neo is killed at the end of Revolutions, but in the same light, Smith follows. Thus no one ever truly wins their fights. The results are merely delayed or truly balanced, Yin and Yang if you will.

In this way, the films display another level of cyclicity. The fights all maintain a reflection of prior incarnations. The “Super Brawl†is littered with references to every fight in M1 between Neo and Smith, as well as references to “the fight†in M2, i.e. the Burly Brawl and its mini brother, the hallway Burly Brawl.

Another level of cyclicity would describe the way in which Thomas Anderson/Neo has been transmogrified into his next state of being. In the first film, Thomas Anderson is overcome by the silver, mirror-like, fluid and “killedâ€. Neo emerges, born anew, in his pod. In the third film, Neo is overcome by the black fluid and killed. His essence emerges, released from his physical constraints, and permanently balances the Matrix, thus why it no longer has the green tint. It is truly a stable world for mankind now.

As an aside, for those that know Alchemy and Humours, you can see the correlation of this in the colors used for the fluids. One side of Black, the color of the fluid Smith uses to consume his victims, is associated with Self-Sacrificing, Self-Discipline, being Gifted, Conscientious, Loyal, and Idealistic. These qualities would certainly describe Neo at the point in which he is consumed by the black fluid. The flip side of Black is associated with being Moody, Pessimistic, Critical, Self-Centered, Vengeful, Unsociable, Judgemental, Pompous, Manic, and Flippant. This description sounds like Smith does it not?

I have doubts that the Wachowski’s went this far into detail with the colors they chose, but then again, who knows.

5) What is so different between Neo dying and destroying Smith at the end of Revolutions and Neo reinserting his code when the Architect wanted him to? The end result was the same, the continued enslavement of humanity, was it not?

If Neo had reinserted his code into the Matrix when the Architect wanted him to, even if Smith had somehow been destroyed in the process, it would have been a zero sum game for both machines and humans. In every cycle, the power of "The One" grows stronger and stronger because some remnants of the last incarnation survive into the next cycle, making the soul more powerful. In Reloaded, The Merovingian was shocked, "Okaaaaay you've got some skill," when Neo stopped all of the bullets with seemingly no effort. This gives the notion that the prior incarnation of "The One" did not have this ability, and that with each cycle, the power of "The One" has grown more and more.

Considering all of Neo's power in Reloaded/Revolutions, it would seem that the next incarnation of his soul, his digital essence, would have been even more powerful and even more difficult for the machines to control.

However, the equation's way of balancing out the problem of Neo was Smith. In turn, the next incarnation of Smith would have been even more powerful than this version, when it was this version that came very close to destroying the matrix. It would have been a complete zero sum game in which both parties would eventually be destroyed.

Humankind in the Matrix and in Zion. The machines in the Matrix and in the machine world. It HAD to end now, no other way around it.

6) What is up with all of the “I believe†crap in Revolutions?

Belief is all that Jesus said was required to be saved. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

The Oracle believed. Morpheus believed. The Kid believed. Niobe believed. Councilor Hammon…. You get the point. It was stated over and over and over again. Faith, Belief, and Love are all the tenets that Jesus espoused that were required to have life after death.

Life after death for the freed people would be living in Zion, the human city. To everyone in the matrix, you are dead and gone, but, in fact, you are alive. See Michael Popper, i.e. "The Kid" from the Animatrix, as a prime example. They held a funeral for him, but he was indeed alive after his “deathâ€.

7) What is the deal with the little girl Sati?

The girl, Sati, showed Neo that the machines were evolving. She is a manifestation of love, another indicator that it was not only humans that needed to be saved, but the machines as well.

Much in the same way that God/Jesus realized in the Old Testament that it was not only the Jews that needed saving, but the whole world. The original covenant of God/Jesus was to save the Jews only, damn the rest of the world. The original covenant of Neo was to save humanity only, damn the machines. In the end, we all became “his†people, machines and humans alike.

In this sense, Neo is indeed the one true amalgamation of man and machine (flesh + machine parts embedded throughout his body, with the power of the source, i.e. a cyborg) in the way that Jesus was the one true amalgamation of god and man in one.

8) How can we see Neo again if he’s dead?

The Oracle says that we will see Neo again someday. Indeed we will. Eventually his digital essence will coalesce again into his next form. However, it might not necessarily be a human being. It could end up being a program, a machine, or an even more powerful iteration of The Matrix.

Even if it turns out to be human, Neo in his next life will not have the power of “The Oneâ€. The reason is that “The One†reaches his power level only through tests and trials that are set in his way in order to test him and make sure he expands his mind and ability in order to overcome those tests. If there is no further purpose for “The Oneâ€, i.e. to free all of mankind from the seeming prison of the matrix, then the anomaly will no longer exist. The problem, as Neo so aptly put it, is choice.

The problem of choice created the escalating problems of the prior matrices in that the collective choices of the human race, along with the imbalance in the equation, created the power of the one. With the problem of choice solved, i.e. those that want to leave can, and the equation balanced, i.e. through the combination of Neo and Smith, “The One†will not surface again, unless choice becomes the problem again, if the peace ends, or some new variable is introduced into the equation which is currently unaccounted for. Thus the Oracle is quite correct in stating that the peace will last as long as it can.

9) You said that Morpheus is analogous to The Father of the Trinity. I heard he’s most like John the Baptist. What’s going on?

Morpheus is not analogous to John the Baptist imo. The Oracle is. John the Baptist prophesied the coming of the one who would free everyone and set the world right. In this sense, Morpheus could not be analogous to John the Baptist because he merely repeated what the Oracle was stating. Jesus called John the Baptist his spiritual brother, and they were blood half brothers as well. This fits with the interpretation of the Oracle as a Christ figure, along with Neo.
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It’s taken me about 6-8 hours of typing away to get all of this down. All of these thoughts and ideas have been swarming in my head for weeks. I’ve just been so tired as of late with work and all that I haven’t been able to get them all down. I hope that what I’ve written is acceptable to you all, and that it helps some look at the films in a different light.

As I said earlier, I honestly believe these films are the most brilliantly conceived and executed works of art in a very long time, and certainly quite possibly one of the greatest set of films of all time. Yes they are riddled with flaws, as all bodies of work are, but the ideas that they try to present to the audience is quite frankly unprecedented, and imo very much appreciated.

Bravo Wachowski brothers. Bravo.

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Here are the two threads I created regarding Reloaded, for reference.

Reloaded didn't make sense to you? (Spoilers, Long, Choc-Full-O'Information)

Reloaded didn't make sense to you? - Part Deux
 
Natoma, I truly enjoy reading your postings on this topic for bringing in your point of view - which is often refreshing - but when looking at the spirit of this movie I can't agree.

In the original, it was clearly by design that such philosophical questions where integrated into the movie - I hardly feel the same about the following two.

Consistency was lost at some point in the films, to the point where it just become a sad amalgamation of hollow words used to string together CGI. There was a time, here in fact, that I defended the movie because I thought I saw something in it... it just didn't exist.

I can't help but feel your attempt at rationalizing an intrinsically obtuse movie is just that.

I just skimmed, but here are a few faults I noted:

  • There is no Lucifer as per the Bible - look it up yourself in the original text.
  • Can we be anymore Roman Catholic -centric in our descriptions?
  • Inconsistency in the way the Smith & Neo duality are explained: For example, the glaucoma sickened Oracle stated that Smith balanced the equation [as per Neo's increasing power]. Alrighty, now lets think about this line obviously put in for the retards out there to grasp the duality because something's amiss.

    Smith, by observation, in Reloaded and Revolutions are both capable of replication in a way that's indistinguishable (kinda like an analogue to elementary particles if you wish to invoke useless crap to parallel). This is supportable in terms of how information is shared between them at several points in the latter two movies. So, this odd problem emerges with their relative strengths during the final battle.

    If [Neo] = [Smith] and we say that Smith has such an indistinguishability property so one can't be a "super" Smith by cannibalizing the rest, we must assume that [Neo] = [Aggregate of Smiths] in terms of that infamous "balance the equation" line.

    So, if one Smith (equivalent to the rest by definition) can fight and kick Neo's ass - then something is very, very wrong. With Smith pervading the Matrix as extensively as he did (basically taking over every human observable to us as well as basically negligating the 'Machine's' Agents from even appearing) there is a major problem with this equation. Namely, it's that fucking imbalanced.

    We should have seen Neo fighting hordes of Smith's on a scale that made the brawl in Reloaded look like nothing. Not this Smith cum Superman persona fighting Neo in the Sky one-on-one.

I also disagree with you on the concept of Sati's role. I felt she was used as justification that the Oracle was capable of 'human' acts outside the realm of what one would consider possible with an AI. Morpheus stated something to the effect of, "How can I trust you" which is a question I believe many had at the end of the second movie.

But, it just opens up even more questions, If the Oracle is capable of these 'human acts' - why not the machines at large? Why did Col. Sanders say at the end that you don't need his word... he is a machine after all. But so is the Oracle and she f-ed with the Machines by taking the defecting strategy many a times. Following this line of reasoning, Why didn't the Machines just let Neo save them and then crush the humans?

This whole line of reasoning is FUBAR and without infering more ideologies that are outside the realm of the movies it's damn near inescapable.


And this isn't even counting the 'retarded' parts like why did the Sentinels spend 95% of the time swarming around. Where they checking out where to put the lazyboy once they take it over?

  • Why didn't the human's bury EMP weapons above their last safe bastion in an array fashion?
  • Where did they get so much ammunition from? Do you realize how fast a gun with a ROF similar to that of one of those APU's burn threw rounds? Those Box's of ammo would be gone in under 10 seconds at that rate.
  • Why even have humans in the loop? Why not have the weapons computer targeted?
  • Why even have projectile weapons? If they have the technology to have electrostatic/magnetic propulsion and human portable HERF weaponry, why not just set up a series of EMR based defenses and fuck them all? Sit back, deep in the core, with EMPs and send them up a tunnel at the boring swarm when they [humans] feel like it.
  • And then there's that whole You're telling me the Machines couldn't find Zion in all those years when it's that damn close with gaping holes that these ships/vessels can travel threw?
I can go on for hours - it's that bad.

The series just ended up sucking... hard. IMHO, They should have all died and ended with a scene from contemporary life, begging us to ask... What if.
 
And just to complete the smartass comments, the best part of the dialogue:

[Smith as Bane] Mr. Anderson, don't you recognize me?
[Neo] Who are you....
[Smith as Bane] Dumbass, who else in the whole damn series calls you Mr. Anderson.
 
Vince said:
[Smith as Bane] Dumbass, who else in the whole damn series calls you Mr. Anderson.


LOL :)

What I though was freaky is how Smith Bane sounded just like Smith.
 
I still haven't seen Revolutions (gonna wait for the DVD methinks), but don't worry about spoilers, i know everything already, only waiting to see how cool it looks...

anyway, did Smith really say that!??!!? that's hilarious
 
After digesting Natoma's post, I am again left with the following impact the last two films in the series made on me:

"meh."
 
Hmmm. Fits, I guess. However, a lot of other people who are far more well-versed on philosophy than I am believe that it is one big Nietszchean thing, with Neo as the ubermensch and Smith as the incarnation of nihilism. Dunno. Haven't read enough Nietzsche to be able to have an opinion.

But still. Stop trying to verbalize the meaning. It doesn't work very well. It just has some sort of effect when you watch it. Something clicks, and it's all but impossible to even come close to expressing what it is.
 
Vince said:
Natoma, I truly enjoy reading your postings on this topic for bringing in your point of view - which is often refreshing - but when looking at the spirit of this movie I can't agree.

In the original, it was clearly by design that such philosophical questions where integrated into the movie - I hardly feel the same about the following two.

Consistency was lost at some point in the films, to the point where it just become a sad amalgamation of hollow words used to string together CGI. There was a time, here in fact, that I defended the movie because I thought I saw something in it... it just didn't exist.

I can't help but feel your attempt at rationalizing an intrinsically obtuse movie is just that.

To be honest I never really look for anything deeper in the films. All of these things came to me just watching it two times. :)

As I said, I think there are indeed flaws in the films. Keanu's acting at times did have to be swallowed in order to be believed (for instance, the death scene between him and Trinity at the end of revolutions just didn't have the emotional impact that good acting would have brought), and some of the fights in Reloaded, while I thoroughly enjoyed them, did feel a little long. But with that in mind, I still feel there is a lot in these films that the Wachowskis put in there on purpose in order to try and get people to think about these concepts. There are definitely a few things that could have been done better, but I think as a whole, they pulled off a very ambitious attempt quite well.

And btw, I fell asleep during The Matrix the first couple of times I saw it. Frankly I found it boring. Just so you know where I'm coming from. :)

Vince said:
I just skimmed, but here are a few faults I noted:

  • There is no Lucifer as per the Bible - look it up yourself in the original text.

Well this is of course dependent on which text of the Old Testament you read. :)

Vince said:
  • Can we be anymore Roman Catholic -centric in our descriptions?

It's funny that you say that since I'm not, nor have I ever been, Roman Catholic. I was raised in the Pentecostal faith, Apostolic sub division, which if you trace the roots, is firmly an offshoot of Protestantism. :)

But anyways, I only described what I saw in the films and how they corrolated with the various religions. It is quite possible and likely that the Wachowskis created this story with Catholicism in mind. Isn't it the largest variant of Christianity?

Vince said:
  • Inconsistency in the way the Smith & Neo duality are explained: For example, the glaucoma sickened Oracle stated that Smith balanced the equation [as per Neo's increasing power]. Alrighty, now lets think about this line obviously put in for the retards out there to grasp the duality because something's amiss.

    Smith, by observation, in Reloaded and Revolutions are both capable of replication in a way that's indistinguishable (kinda like an analogue to elementary particles if you wish to invoke useless crap to parallel). This is supportable in terms of how information is shared between them at several points in the latter two movies. So, this odd problem emerges with their relative strengths during the final battle.

    If [Neo] = [Smith] and we say that Smith has such an indistinguishability property so one can't be a "super" Smith by cannibalizing the rest, we must assume that [Neo] = [Aggregate of Smiths] in terms of that infamous "balance the equation" line.

    So, if one Smith (equivalent to the rest by definition) can fight and kick Neo's ass - then something is very, very wrong. With Smith pervading the Matrix as extensively as he did (basically taking over every human observable to us as well as basically negligating the 'Machine's' Agents from even appearing) there is a major problem with this equation. Namely, it's that fucking imbalanced.

    We should have seen Neo fighting hordes of Smith's on a scale that made the brawl in Reloaded look like nothing. Not this Smith cum Superman persona fighting Neo in the Sky one-on-one.

Well that depends on how you look at the film. When Smith absorbed the Oracle, all of the other Smiths backed away in what appeared to me to be fear. Fear of what is my question.

Now we've all heard the aphorism that Knowledge is Power. I think you can see where I'm going with this. I gotta head to a meeting though, so I'll edit this later to flesh it out.

I had this whole thing written about Adam and Eve and the Forbidden Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge and being tempted by Satan to become like God and whatnot. The Oracle having all of the knowledge of the Matrix because she helped build it. She can see the future because she can understand the different code paths of the Matrix and make out escalating probabilities as to what will occur. She's one uber parser basically.

Yadda yadda yadda paragraphs and paragraphs on this subject basically.

Vince said:
I also disagree with you on the concept of Sati's role. I felt she was used as justification that the Oracle was capable of 'human' acts outside the realm of what one would consider possible with an AI. Morpheus stated something to the effect of, "How can I trust you" which is a question I believe many had at the end of the second movie.

But, it just opens up even more questions, If the Oracle is capable of these 'human acts' - why not the machines at large? Why did Col. Sanders say at the end that you don't need his word... he is a machine after all. But so is the Oracle and she f-ed with the Machines by taking the defecting strategy many a times. Following this line of reasoning, Why didn't the Machines just let Neo save them and then crush the humans?

This whole line of reasoning is FUBAR and without infering more ideologies that are outside the realm of the movies it's damn near inescapable.


And this isn't even counting the 'retarded' parts like why did the Sentinels spend 95% of the time swarming around. Where they checking out where to put the lazyboy once they take it over?

  • Why didn't the human's bury EMP weapons above their last safe bastion in an array fashion?
  • Where did they get so much ammunition from? Do you realize how fast a gun with a ROF similar to that of one of those APU's burn threw rounds? Those Box's of ammo would be gone in under 10 seconds at that rate.
  • Why even have humans in the loop? Why not have the weapons computer targeted?
  • Why even have projectile weapons? If they have the technology to have electrostatic/magnetic propulsion and human portable HERF weaponry, why not just set up a series of EMR based defenses and fuck them all? Sit back, deep in the core, with EMPs and send them up a tunnel at the boring swarm when they [humans] feel like it.
  • And then there's that whole You're telling me the Machines couldn't find Zion in all those years when it's that damn close with gaping holes that these ships/vessels can travel threw?
I can go on for hours - it's that bad.

The series just ended up sucking... hard. IMHO, They should have all died and ended with a scene from contemporary life, begging us to ask... What if.

I'll get to this later too. :LOL:

Damn meeting caught me mid response.

Just some skimming since I really don't feel like rewriting what I had written. Goddamn browser eating my post. Sigh.

Sati is a manifestation of human emotions much in the same way that the programs Smith, Oracle, Merovingian, Persephone, and Rama Kandra were. Envy and Hate, Guidance, Lust and Greed, Lust and Envy and Spite, Love.

All different facets of who we are as a species. They all became "infected", as smith alluded to in the 1st one, by their contact with us. When you're in a shit pile, eventually you begin to smell like that shit pile, even if you don't want to. ;)

That's why machines and programs like the Architect could not be like the "lesser" programs were. They weren't in contact with humans. They hadn't been corrupted. In a sense, you could say that Satan was corrupted by Humanity (he developed jealousy, envy, and spite because of god's treatment of adam and eve), and that even God was eventually corrupted by humanity. See all the myriad "evil" traits of God in the old testament. Rage, Jealousy, etc.

As for the weapons. I talked about how the weapons and ships we see the humans have weren't built by them. They're merely being maintained. The Matrix in the trilogy was in its 6th iteration. If each iteration lasts roughly 200 years, that would mean that it is around the year 3100-3300. The plaque on the Nebuchanezzar stated that it was built in 2069 I think, which would mean that it's over 1000 years old. Considering the amount of repairs the ships crews were doing, I'm not surprised that they couldn't really do much in terms of making new weaponry. It's not like they could to their local arms dealer and buy some EMP nukes. :)

The machines always knew where Zion was. They merely let the humans think that it was hidden away and they were safe. The humans didn't know that they were being corralled into one place to be slaughtered like cattle and that the machines had done that 5 times before.

The Sentinels were swarming to draw the fire away from the two diggers. They were also flying around the diggers to protect them from any rocket fire, as was shown. This is because they can't dig down into the city without the diggers. Their purpose was to protect the diggers until they bore a hole into the city, then the Sentinels would go to work killing all of the humans.

This is a rag tag description of what I had actually written. But I hope you get the gist of what I had said earlier.
 
Reloaded was so uninspiringly bad i haven't bothered with revolutions yet.

Doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not, a bad film is still a bad film :)

Philosphy always seems a bit arty to me. The general thing seems to be 'lets take some simple concepts then add long words and give everything fancy names and try and confuse people with it'. :|
 
Bambers said:
Reloaded was so uninspiringly bad i haven't bothered with revolutions yet.

Doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not, a bad film is still a bad film :)

Philosphy always seems a bit arty to me. The general thing seems to be 'lets take some simple concepts then add long words and give everything fancy names and try and confuse people with it'. :|


And Rel+Rev didn't even bother with the long words.

Really i find this a bit ridiculous. Every movie can be interpreted as [put name of philosopher here]'s vision/theory. Or in comparison with a book. Or in comparison with a scientific theory.
EVERY movie. Even frikking J-Lo's ones :rolleyes:
And there are much better movies to spend 6-8 hours writing about than The Matrix Trilogy.
Really, if the best someone can do is extrapolating philosophy theories out of a bad movie, then that talent is sadly wasted.
 
To each his own london-boy. You consider it a waste of time, obviously I didn't. If you don't want to participate in a discussion, why are you here? :)
 
John Reynolds said:
Best acting in the entire series.

Very true. However when Neo had to Kiss Merv's wife (Monica Bellucci) how he managed to look so blah about it tooke at lest some acting :p About the only time in the whole dam serries I wish I was "The One" :)
 
Natoma said:
To each his own london-boy. You consider it a waste of time, obviously I didn't. If you don't want to participate in a discussion, why are you here? :)


I AM participating!! :D

I'm just saying, your a fab writer, and i just think your 6-8 hours could have produced something more worthy than The Matrix, that's all...

I mean i thoroughly enjoyed the first and watched it countless times, had to watch the second like 6 times before beginning to understand it, haven't bothered yet with the 3rd...

Still, there are such good movies that would kill for an analysis like the one u just did... :?
 
Omg Vince I'm sorry. I just had this super long post where I responded to each point you brought up and the goddamn browser just ate it all.

Sigh. I'll try again later I suppose. God so disheartening.
 
london-boy said:
Natoma said:
To each his own london-boy. You consider it a waste of time, obviously I didn't. If you don't want to participate in a discussion, why are you here? :)


I AM participating!! :D

I'm just saying, your a fab writer, and i just think your 6-8 hours could have produced something more worthy than The Matrix, that's all...

I mean i thoroughly enjoyed the first and watched it countless times, had to watch the second like 6 times before beginning to understand it, haven't bothered yet with the 3rd...

Still, there are such good movies that would kill for an analysis like the one u just did... :?

:LOL:

Well it just sounded like you were insulting me is all. :)

But you know what? The funny thing is that there aren't too many films out there that you see people going "Wtf???". That's why I write these things. It helps me understand and enjoy the films more, and in some cases it helps others.

p.s.: Vince, I soooooooo do not feel like rewriting what I had. It was so goddamn long. God it'd be easier to just tell you over the phone or something. :LOL:
 
Satan tried to kill Christ many times. He "infected" thousands of the Romans and Jews with his hatred and evil in order to do it when direct confrontation, the temptations of Christ, didn't work. When he finally got his wish, he could not have known that Christ would become even more powerful in death and that it would seal Satan’s doom. Satan could not see past his purpose, i.e. to destroy god's creation, to end all life. Because of this, he could not see that the death of Christ at the hands of those he had infected with his evil was in fact his own doom. Smith parallel’s Satan’s fall quite well.

Expanding on your and offering a different conclusion on this part if I may:

Jesus did not die, he was resurrected (Chirstian and Muslim belief). The ending of the Matrix is open in so far that we do not know if The One died. The final conversation with Oracle and The Architect hints that The One is not dead.

With regards to the darkness you mention earlier, the Darkness is not a lack of light. Darknes is 'zero' or before even 'zero' - Darkness is nothing WRT to Creation as before there was Creation there was nothing except God.

Smith is also the ego of God in a similar way that he is the ego of the machines. God, being a perfect being in its own mind, could have no other choice but to have an ego. When you can look upon a creation and see no flaw, no fault, and say “It is goodâ€￾, there is a sense of pride and ego that one naturally expresses. It is the sense of joy and completion that it is inherent in every being, even one that knows nothing but perfection. Ego in and of itself is not a bad thing. Ego, when controlled, is what we call pride, and pride, when controlled, is a powerful force that can lead one to hone their skills, take care of their children, fix their homes, et al. How did ego in this case become corrupted? It happened when it came in contact with humanity. It happened when it came in contact with choice. God has no other choice but to be perfect, to be good. However, when God created humanity, and gave humanity the choice to be good or evil, the repercussions of that choice infected all of creation and even God itself. The manifestations of this are a “perfectâ€￾ god’s rage, anger, jealousy, and destructive impulses. The Floods spoken about in nearly every religion are one such manifestation of this. The only way to abate this rage, this anger, these destructive impulses, was to offer up sacrifices in order to balance the world again and set things right. However, they were only temporary.

In Christian theology and others the Creation is not perfect. God saying, "It is good" as you quote does not mean God is saying "The Creation is perfect." It is flawed however in The Matrix the machines are trying to reach perfection and cannot attain it so this is different to your comparison to your idea of "Creation" in Christian and Muslim theology. God alone is perfect, not His creation as He did not create it with to be perfect. (Sorry for referring to Muslim theology but there are parallels and I am most at home with it).

I dont want to discuss point 2 as this is something I am not familiar with.

Point 3 The Oracle could be seen as, in your quote, simply a 'mother' who understands the needs of her child better than any other 'being' including the 'Father' both literally and figuratively. So she gives Neo a nudge in the right direction when he needs it (but not only as she is 'caring' to all that come to her). Like everyone says in the movie, 'she told me what I needed to know' which reminds me of something akin to a mother offering comfort when her child is 'hurt' or naturally inquisitive and there is no easier answer. An example would be, 'where do babies come from?' or even, 'why am I [here]?'

Point 5, you assume Neo is killed as I said earlier he may not be killed, perhaps his body is but there will be another The One. Why do they always end in draws? A principle of Yin and Yang perhaps? Light and Darkness? The balancing of an equation until finally the equation is solved? The stroytellers did not know what to do with him..? I believe Agent Smith was the weakest part of the Trilogy, he was an afterthought it seems - needed for rounding off and perfecting the 'equation' only at the end.

Point 5 bares some thinking about, but I think that there is no new incarnation of The Matrix until another war ensues. I don't know what Smith would have become and I don't think the storytellers did either. Again I see him as a convenience, like the really bad way of tying a lose end by saying, "and then she woke up" ending.

The "I believe crap" is faith and hope personified by Morpheus and if you want to add Christianity into, he represented Prophet John (AS) who foretold in the lifetime of Jesus (AS) of his coming.

Point 7, Sati is as you describe not only a justification that The Oracle is human in many respects but also personifies why human do irrational things at times (we do for the future of our progeny etc). The sunrise that she apparently makes or artistically renders at the end is a metaphor for our kids bringing light in the world like no adult human can, and as a potential for what a child can blossom into in the future. Sati has a future after all as do all children, untainted by the Darkness until they reach a certain level maturity.

Point 8 about seeing Neo again, he could come back again in form not only digitally and spiritually but physically since he may not be dead (again the analogy to Christ).

Point 9 I see you mention John the Baptist too but think The Oracle is, well all I say is actually see what John the Baptist did, bring forth a message and tell of the Messiah Jesus (AS) and cleanse souls (unhook people from The Matrix).

You say Oracle is also a Christ figure so they keep changing roles all the time.. I will stick with her being a 'mother' and maybe Mary rather than Christ and John the Baptist etc.. heh.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK this is where it gets even more trickier, I disagree with your first analysis and conclusion which you make at the beginning that Revolutions was predominantly Chritian with a mix of Hinduism, Buddhism. To me it wsa more about Karma and focused on Choice which is almost paradoxial in its understanding that I don't think any human can really truly in the heart say "I understand it" but rather some may say "I accept it." The lack of real choice in mundane things (like breaking a vase) but the power humans have in the BIG CHOICES for example Agent Smith asking Neo "Why do you fight?" and Neo replies, "Because I choose to," is like a mix of pre-destiny and freewill.

Even if you disagree with what I may have said, I hope you understand why I saw the movies differently to you.

Finally my final critique of the movie is that 'the Light' is not the light of perfection in the movies at all. And the movie stumbles and contradicts itself but overall on a less deeper level it gets a thumbs up from me.

"Good, could have been better," Tahir.
 
Natoma said:
I just had this super long post where I responded to each point you brought up and the goddamn browser just ate it all.

Tip of the day:
Whenever you're about to submit a long post, hit Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C first. If something screws up, you still got it on the clipboard. I always do that, and it have saved my 1 hour worth of typing a number of times.


As for interpreting the movie, I'm thinking more of Plato's philosophies than on religion. Especially the first movie. The last one was disappointing though. Too much action, too predictable and too little depth.
 
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