Revolutions, nay The Matrix Trilogy, didn't make sense?

[pax]

I dont see the contradiction tween some ideas of god and free will... it basically goes like: can god make a rock he cant lift? Yeah the rock is called free will... Ive no prob with the idea of an ultimate god who creates thinsg he cant prophesize about... And as for those prophecies he might make, it could be simply that he sees the mechanisms of unalterable behavior... I believe in free will but not in free will that totally dominates every facet of our existence at all times...

 

[noko]

The bible said the gods, plural, made the heaven and earth, and the almighty god made Eden? Err, which bible are you reading? That's not in the bible I grew up with.

hehe, I know, besides this topic deals with the Matrix and not about the Bible . I really don't want to scare to many people you know .

 

[Headstone]

Anyways what I'm basically trying to say is that anyone who believes in an all knowing deity cannot believe in free will.

If everything is predetermined, there is no need for omniscience.

Its like psychic trick, where a number is put in a pre-sealed enveloped from several months ago.

When setting up an experiment would you do so already knowing the final outcome? Probably not unless you were just validating. Most times an experiment will involve and unknown or a variable (free will) where the general result over a short period of time will match the baseline but as time goe the result can vary wildly.
something like this possibly a+b+c<n>=outcome
at n=0 the result is still the same but as n gets larger...

 

[Fred]

I think Natoma was more or less correct, there was a tremendous amount of Budhism in revolutions, and a lot of symbolism that should be very obvious (indeed intended by the directors).

However the end of the second movie didn't leave me with a lot of questions, but the last one did. In that sense I was very frustrated by it.

I suppose its the logical side of me, that can't make sense out of some of the consistency, even on a basic level. One still doesn't really 'get' the oracle and what her purpose is, nor do we see the architects plan.

Precisely how are the machines going to draw energy if their 'battery' is gone! etc etc

 

[Neeyik]

Personally, I think the questions left by the films are born from the gaping plot holes and mediocre direction...

 

[Tahir2]

Well that's a problem that I've always had. How can a perfect being create something imperfect? You see the paradox there no?

By saying that the intention of the perfect was not to create perfection at all but if He wanted to He could or another words the imperfection of creation does not reflect the Creators perfection or any limitation of His powers.

Oh? I thought Muslims believed that Jesus was a prophet like Mohammed and Abraham and Moses, but that he did not rise.

Muslims believe that Jesus (AS) was a indeed prophet (this highest station man has ever reached) and was risen before being put on the cross.

 

[Tahir2]

Now as for darkness, in the bible it said that in the beginning, the earth was without form, and darkness covered the waters as god moved over it. You said that darkness is not a lack of light. It is nothingness, it is a lack of god.

Sorry saw this as well... I did mean a lack of God, I meant a lack of anything except God, i.e. no light as we know it literally, no darkness even, no hyperspace, no universe-bubbles, no matter, no quantum effects, no laws of physics - just God. The light (as literal photons), darkness, hyperspace, bubbles, quantum effects, quarks, strings, membranes, atoms, molecules, laws of physics, big bang or whatever is a part of Creation.

It's like asking what is before the big bang and saying Nothing. Nothing is not entirely correct as before Nothing there is/was/will be God even if there is no Universe or other beings to witness/deny/discuss this.

IMHO of course.

 

[Tahir2]

I dont see the contradiction tween some ideas of god and free will... it basically goes like: can god make a rock he cant lift? Yeah the rock is called free will... Ive no prob with the idea of an ultimate god who creates thinsg he cant prophesize about...

Then you place a limit on God and tie god to a limit of this Universe of His Creation and god no longer is God but something you try to reason and rationalise from the limited points of reference a human has.

Or so one theory goes..

 

[V3]

was risen before being put on the cross.

Can you explain what do you mean by that ?

 

[pax]

Well definitely... Is ee God as 'omniscient' to a point wher the paradox takes effect. If god wants beings with free will why limit himself from that creative act just to remain omniscient in a purely mechanistic (and valueless imho) universe? Its either god is all powerful (can make everything) or omniscient... But both cant be true and I dont see it necessary for God to be unlimited in every sense as it creates paradoxes...

I cant associate sentience without some measure of free will...

 

[London Geezer]

Call me simple, but i have many theories (or opinions) on God, which have nothing to do with the Bible. They change depending on the day, the situation i'm in and the stimula i get from the outside world.

Most of the time i think God (if you guys want to call him that way) just gave the initial kick, then left things to evolve on their own, therefore giving everyone/everything potential free will. His "kick" was the creation of a perfect and unique "Formula of everything" (We're hearing about this a lot) which, in its own, was enough to make the universe the way it is now. He does not, in my opinion, interfere with what happens now, because it is not in his power. Changing what happens in everyday life would go against his own perfection, against his own "formula of everything". His omniscent power lies in the creation of the beggining, it does not mean that he can just go all Bruce-almighty on us whenever he feels like it.

I'm a very scientific kind of guy, and this God thing really feels like a lazy excuse not to bother explaining some things we need to know about how we got here, but in the end "Somewhere, somehow, things must have been started". God, or this "formula of everything", which we will NEVER reach, for the fact that we will never get close to (God's) perfection, would explain how things started off. Science and philosophy are very close in my brain. It's like, they occupy the same area of the brain for me.


Now, remind me why i just wrote that in a Matrix thread...?

 

[noko]

Choice means not knowing the outcome until chosen. Matrix machines was bound by destiny of the physical, Cause and Effect. The humans gave the machine an anomoly, Choice, the not knowing the outcome due to choice of humans. Since humans have a gift that the machines could not control nor possess hence the elaborate machine schemes to contain the humans. Yet what appeared to be perfect balanced equations for the machines (paradice, eden) turned out to be monumental failures, hmmm kinda like with the Garden Of Eden, ahmmm never mind.

Now the Bible does speak of many gods or Gods. So which god or God are you referring to? Retorical guestion at best.

 

[Natoma]

I think Natoma was more or less correct, there was a tremendous amount of Budhism in revolutions, and a lot of symbolism that should be very obvious (indeed intended by the directors).

However the end of the second movie didn't leave me with a lot of questions, but the last one did. In that sense I was very frustrated by it.

I suppose its the logical side of me, that can't make sense out of some of the consistency, even on a basic level. One still doesn't really 'get' the oracle and what her purpose is, nor do we see the architects plan.

Precisely how are the machines going to draw energy if their 'battery' is gone! etc etc

Well the architect said that the machines would accept some level of survival even if the human race went extinct. I mean if you think about it, we humans could survive without our machines. It wouldn't be much of an existence in terms of what we know now, but we could do it. Without all that power, the machines couldn't power the sentinels and their fleet of ships, but some of them could survive.

Though, just as us with a loss of our technology, that is not a preferrable outcome.

 

[Natoma]

Now as for darkness, in the bible it said that in the beginning, the earth was without form, and darkness covered the waters as god moved over it. You said that darkness is not a lack of light. It is nothingness, it is a lack of god.

Sorry saw this as well... I did mean a lack of God, I meant a lack of anything except God, i.e. no light as we know it literally, no darkness even, no hyperspace, no universe-bubbles, no matter, no quantum effects, no laws of physics - just God. The light (as literal photons), darkness, hyperspace, bubbles, quantum effects, quarks, strings, membranes, atoms, molecules, laws of physics, big bang or whatever is a part of Creation.

It's like asking what is before the big bang and saying Nothing. Nothing is not entirely correct as before Nothing there is/was/will be God even if there is no Universe or other beings to witness/deny/discuss this.

IMHO of course.

Actually most scientists believe that there was "something" before the big bang. All matter and energy in our current universe was condensed into one singularity, infinitely small, infintely dense.

Besides, in the bible, it says that god moved upon the face of the waters, and that the earth did exist, it just didn't have shape. Now this could of course be an allusion to something or merely literary license with the original writer(s) of Genesis, but taken literally, this means that there was "something" before god began "creating".

 

[Natoma]

Well definitely... Is ee God as 'omniscient' to a point wher the paradox takes effect. If god wants beings with free will why limit himself from that creative act just to remain omniscient in a purely mechanistic (and valueless imho) universe? Its either god is all powerful (can make everything) or omniscient... But both cant be true and I dont see it necessary for God to be unlimited in every sense as it creates paradoxes...

I cant associate sentience without some measure of free will...

Well in christian theology, God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, i.e. 4th dimensional.

So in that light, since god is all knowing, all powerful, and present everywhere, there is no such thing as free will. I'm about to leave work a minute early. I think I'm doing it because I want to do it, but God knew I was going to do it even before I did it, and therefore my actions became a self-fulfilling prophecy in God's mind even though I thought I was exercising my power of free will.

That is a paradox that simply contradicts christian theology to the core, which is one reason why I no longer believe in Christianity. We simply cannot be creatures of free will if God is all knowing, all powerful, and present everywhere because no matter what we do or think, God knew about it beforehand. Meaning this entire world is nothing but a self-fufilling prophecy. Especially if the Book of Revelations is true in Christianity, that means that the end of the world is already prescripted and those that will be saved will be saved, and those that won't, won't. It's all a script as foretold in the bible.

Free will indeed.

 

[Tahir2]

You know that is the whole argument of the Oracle and The Matrix Natoma..
The paradox that is freewill and choice versus pre-destiny and a stage.

And no I dont think God created the Universe and then decided He will let it run and evolve without knowing the future of it either. (pax's et al point).

Actually most scientists believe that there was "something" before the big bang. All matter and energy in our current universe was condensed into one singularity, infinitely small, infintely dense.

That's not quote right Natoma, current scientific thinking is that something came from Nothing however when Nothing is described the scientists are talking about SOMETHING really. The Nothing they describe is the perfect symmetry of a void, which is balanced being shattered and creating the Universe as a side-effect. One anaology given by K.C. Cole is that the Nothing is akin to a blank peice of paper waiting to be written on. Trying to find the properties of this paper is what science does (is it bumpy, slippery, circular, black (so when u write on it it doesnt show), too thin to be perceived.. etc etc).

The really interesting bit to me is, where did that paper come from? Heh!

 

[V3]

Besides, in the bible, it says that god moved upon the face of the waters, and that the earth did exist, it just didn't have shape. Now this could of course be an allusion to something or merely literary license with the original writer(s) of Genesis, but taken literally, this means that there was "something" before god began "creating".

It must have been very long time since you read the book of Genesis, you've got it backward. The first sentence of the book is "1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Meaning this entire world is nothing but a self-fufilling prophecy.

Even if this world is a self fufilling prophecy, free will is not impossible, because God is omiscient.

If God isn't omniscient and wrote the script like in the book of revelation, than, you can reason, that God must used his omnipotent for pre destination, thus removing free will.

and therefore my actions became a self-fulfilling prophecy in God's mind even though I thought I was exercising my power of free will.

You thought free will is the ability to fool God ?

 

[Natoma]

Besides, in the bible, it says that god moved upon the face of the waters, and that the earth did exist, it just didn't have shape. Now this could of course be an allusion to something or merely literary license with the original writer(s) of Genesis, but taken literally, this means that there was "something" before god began "creating".

It must have been very long time since you read the book of Genesis, you've got it backward. The first sentence of the book is "1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Corrected.

Meaning this entire world is nothing but a self-fufilling prophecy.

Even if this world is a self fufilling prophecy, free will is not impossible, because God is omiscient.

If God isn't omniscient and wrote the script like in the book of revelation, than, you can reason, that God must used his omnipotent for pre destination, thus removing free will.

Well omniscience is all knowing and omnipotence is all powerful. If a being is all knowing, then frankly nothing you do is unknown before it happens, therefore it isn't free will at all, but a script in someone being's head.

and therefore my actions became a self-fulfilling prophecy in God's mind even though I thought I was exercising my power of free will.

You thought free will is the ability to fool God ?

Whoever said that. Free will is about making a choice and going with that choice. The larger problem it raises is, since God knows everything that will occur, why in the world let billions live and die an eternal death, according to christianity, when he knows who will serve him and be with him eternally in heaven? Why not just create those few and not subject the other few billion humans and whoever else it's created to an eternity of torment?

That is not the workings of a compassionate and caring god. If I'm a parent and I know 100% absolutely positively that the child I'm going to father will be a child molester, rapist, murderer, and any other terrible thing you can think of, and in the end be put into a never ending sentence of torture by the state, would I allow that child to be born? No.

A God that knows that I would not follow its beliefs, i.e. believing in it as the ultimate god that I should worship, should have never allowed me or any of the other billions of humans who don't believe, and have not believed throughout the ages, live in the first place. To not subject us to an eternity of torment for simply choosing to not worship it. That would be compassionate would it not? If anything, torturing all those lives for choosing not to worship that god seems petty. "Oh you don't want to worship me? You don't want to acknowledge me as head honcho? You're gunna burn!"

Or maybe God should have just made creation perfect the first time so it wouldn't have messed up. Here's my take on God's musings right around the time of creation:

I'll create this somewhat intelligent species. I'll make him flawed, but I won't tell him I knew I was making him flawed. I'll tell him it was his fault that he failed, even though I knew he would fail because I'm all knowing and all seeing. Then let me lay the guilt trip on him by 'dying' for him to erase his sins which I created in the first place. And through all this, I'll say that if he doesn't worship me because I'm all powerful, he's condemned to eternal suffering, through no fault of his own, but just because I wanted a damn good laugh.

Maybe I'm being a little too sarcastic, but I simply do not comprehend how one can believe in an omniscient god and still believe in free will. The two concepts simply do not mesh.

 

[pax]

Im trying to think of a biblical passage that says god is omniscient. Ill have to get a hold of some bible software one of these days... But even if there is such a passage and another or some that say he is both omniscient and all powerful Id simply disagree with that. Though Id be surprised that jewish thinkers couldnt have wrapped their minds around that over the eons.

I have no probs seeing a single god who is the most powerful that can be conceived of and very scient (if im bastardizing the english language let me know) and be the ultimate being who isnt subject to the whims of some physical or other mechanisms other than logic.

Even without the illogical acronyms of omniscient and all powerful God is truly a concept to behold I find.

 

[Legion]

Im trying to think of a biblical passage that says god is omniscient. Ill have to get a hold of some bible software one of these days... But even if there is such a passage and another or some that say he is both omniscient and all powerful Id simply disagree with that. Though Id be surprised that jewish thinkers couldnt have wrapped their minds around that over the eons.

I wouldn't say Jewish thinkers as much radical christian thinkers.

I have no probs seeing a single god who is the most powerful that can be conceived of and very scient (if im bastardizing the english language let me know) and be the ultimate being who isnt subject to the whims of some physical or other mechanisms other than logic.

Probably not, but there are plenty of problems with that diety being Yahweh

Even without the illogical acronyms of omniscient and all powerful God is truly a concept to behold I find.

God as in a supernatural entity? What evidence do you have to suggest its existance? How do you know there aren't many gods?

God is suggested to be (by himself and others) that he is all knowing, all powerful, ever present and omnibenevolent. One such verse had God relating he knows a man will exist long before he was ever formed.