Revolutions, nay The Matrix Trilogy, didn't make sense?

[pax]

Well you can say gods if your definition is diff. But to me the word god should be associated not with the idea of supernatural beings with strong but relative powers but with as supreme a concept as can be derived.

 

[V3]

Well omniscience is all knowing and omnipotence is all powerful. If a being is all knowing, then frankly nothing you do is unknown before it happens, therefore it isn't free will at all, but a script in someone being's head.

And that script is not enforced, its not even reveal to us, individually, we don't know where we're going to end up. So really you're free to do what you want.

since God knows everything that will occur, why in the world let billions live and die an eternal death, according to christianity, when he knows who will serve him and be with him eternally in heaven? Why not just create those few and not subject the other few billion humans and whoever else it's created to an eternity of torment?

Even, if ones were to spend eternity of torment, for the time that they lived, it was good.

That is not the workings of a compassionate and caring god. If I'm a parent and I know 100% absolutely positively that the child I'm going to father will be a child molester, rapist, murderer, and any other terrible thing you can think of, and in the end be put into a never ending sentence of torture by the state, would I allow that child to be born? No.

That's understandable. However God isn't bound by evil. To those that refused his care and compassion, never ending torture is inevitable.

A God that knows that I would not follow its beliefs, i.e. believing in it as the ultimate god that I should worship, should have never allowed me or any of the other billions of humans who don't believe, and have not believed throughout the ages, live in the first place.

To not subject us to an eternity of torment for simply choosing to not worship it. That would be compassionate would it not? If anything, torturing all those lives for choosing not to worship that god seems petty. "Oh you don't want to worship me? You don't want to acknowledge me as head honcho? You're gunna burn!"

That God still created us and the world we live in and everything in it, for us not to give thanks, that's not compassionate.

Also is injusticed to judge people on things that they haven't committed. God is not just loves, compassion and caring, God is also justice.

You said you wouldn't allowed a rapist to be born, that's giving judgement to things they haven't done. God isn't bound by time, but humans are. We can not be judge on things that we haven't done, we cannot be judge through God's ability to see the future. That's why Final Judgement comes at the end of time, and not at the beginning.

To make all those who doesn't want to worship God, not to exist from the beginning would be injusticed.

 

[Natoma]

So not existing because you don't want to worship God is an injustice, but suffering for all of eternity afterward isn't? All of this in the eyes of a God that knew from the very beginning what would happen to billions of souls?

Please. I simply do not and never will accept that. Even when I was deeply involved in the church and believed in christianity to the core, that one aspect of God's omniscience always stabbed at me. I couldn't accept that then, and I certainly don't now.

An all knowing, all powerful, compassionate God would have made creation perfect from the beginning so billions of souls wouldn't have to experience torture and death and suffering. Unless of course we're now saying that God is too high and mighty to be constrained by our ideas of compassion. Yet another idea that has always irked me, especially in issues of common decency.

 

[noko]

Omniscience is not supported in the Bible, I can give example after example of where God did not know but had to find out. Free choice dictates this which the Bible does confirm was given to humans.

Omnipotence is also misleading and not a term used in the Bible, God as in Jehovah is most powerful, the almighty. Other beings have power thus Jehovah does not have all power (maybe some of his power was given to others you could say, shared, while some of the others abused this gift from the almighty).

 

[Natoma]

Omniscience is not directly stated in the bible, but it is certainly there. God is omnipresent, and that is certainly in many scriptures in the bible. If you're omnipresent, that means you're omniscient automatically by your mere fact of your presence. That's why I call God a 4th dimensional being if it exists.

There's no way that christians could have the belief that the bible is the word of god and that it fortells his coming and the end days without omniscience. Revelations and biblical prophecy are completely dependent upon God's omniscience. So no, it's not directly stated, but the bible simply cannot function without that fact of God's perceived power.

 

[pax]

Well omnipresence isnt necessarily omniscience. Being in my head at the time I take a decision doesnt mean he knows what choice Ill make when I hit an event that demands I make some choice about it.

For ex: How can God know Im going or not going to war with China next year if even I dont know.

 

[noko]

Omniscience is not directly stated in the bible, but it is certainly there.

Here is one example:
Gen 18:20
Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. if not, I will know."

Very clearly Jehovah did not know but had to check the condition of Sodom. Meaning Omnisicience (knowing all) is not true. Also omnipresence as in being everywhere is also disproved since Jehovah had to go down and see.

Be careful what you believe, to believe Jehovah is Omnisicience means he knew of all the evil present and recorded in history before it happened and purposely planned for it. That is not indicated by the Bible as far as I can tell.

 

[Natoma]

Actually I'm an atheist.

 

[noko]

Hmmm, that sounds like saying non-existance exists .

 

[Tahir2]

Well omnipresence isnt necessarily omniscience. Being in my head at the time I take a decision doesnt mean he knows what choice Ill make when I hit an event that demands I make some choice about it.

For ex: How can God know Im going or not going to war with China next year if even I dont know.

Because it has already happened?

 

[pax]

Er well Im not keen on the idea of a purely mechanistic universe that cycles itself exactly Tahir so I dont know what your point is hhe...

 

[Tahir2]

That's not what I was alluding to either - the idea that the Universe has a cycle I mean.
It is only a theory from physicists at the moment that time is linear and *one way* to us due to our 'position' in the dimensions. We might be flowing backwards in time and we can't distinguish from it because EVERYTHING goes backwards then and we see it as forward. Damn physicists are smoking pot again I guess.
Let me try and dig some information up for you..

 

[Tagrineth]

Very clearly Jehovah did not know but had to check the condition of Sodom. Meaning Omnisicience (knowing all) is not true. Also omnipresence as in being everywhere is also disproved since Jehovah had to go down and see.

Be careful what you believe, to believe Jehovah is Omnisicience means he knew of all the evil present and recorded in history before it happened and purposely planned for it. That is not indicated by the Bible as far as I can tell.

...not to belittle or prejudge you or anything, as this is a rather intelligent post, but every Jehovah's Witness I know IRL is scaaaaaaaaaaaary. o.o

 

[V3]

So not existing because you don't want to worship God is an injustice, but suffering for all of eternity afterward isn't?

Yes. Like I said, you don't get judge on things you are about to do, but on the things you've done.

All of this in the eyes of a God that knew from the very beginning what would happen to billions of souls?

Yes.

An all knowing, all powerful, compassionate God would have made creation perfect from the beginning so billions of souls wouldn't have to experience torture and death and suffering.

You seems to concentrate alot on God's compassion.

All the torture, death and suffering in this world, happens because of the lack of compassion, between humans.

God is compassionate toward those who are humble. Humility for the creature is the truth. Is the order of things. God is truth. When creature is prideful, it disrupt the order of things, and God will fix that by making humble that creature.

So if eternal suffering, is the only way for a creature to be humble, that's the way it will be. So its all well and good. So its not a matter of suffering, but being humble and truthful.

 

[jvd]

You seems to concentrate alot on God's compassion.

All the torture, death and suffering in this world, happens because of the lack of compassion, between humans.

God is compassionate toward those who are humble. Humility for the creature is the truth. Is the order of things. God is truth. When creature is prideful, it disrupt the order of things, and God will fix that by making humble that creature.

So if eternal suffering, is the only way for a creature to be humble, that's the way it will be. So its all well and good. So its not a matter of suffering, but being humble and truthful.

God made us in his image so our lack of compassion surely must be present in god otherwise it wouldn't be there in us .


Its simple. If god does exist and he knows all that is going to happen and yet lets all these evil things happen then there must be a reason for it.


Or god could just be a female and that would make god allowing all of mans pain and suffering make sense

 

[noko]

...not to belittle or prejudge you or anything, as this is a rather intelligent post, but every Jehovah's Witness I know IRL is scaaaaaaaaaaaary. o.o

I am not a Jehovah's Witness nor was I ever a Jehovah's Witness in respects to the organization called by that. Jehovah is the English name for the Almighty God thought to be pronouced Yahweh or Yah in Hebrew. The english word Jehovah has been around much longer then the organization known as Jehovah's Witnesses. Sorry I thought I will clarify this, anyways:

In the Bible it is very clear that Jehovah does not know everything, the example I gave above is only one instance. Of course one could speculate the nature of God anyway they want, but being true or not is a different matter.

 

[Tagrineth]

I am not a Jehovah's Witness nor was I ever a Jehovah's Witness in respects to the organization called by that. Jehovah is the English name for the Almighty God thought to be pronouced Yahweh or Yah in Hebrew. The english word Jehovah has been around much longer then the organization known as Jehovah's Witnesses. Sorry I thought I will clarify this, anyways:

In the Bible it is very clear that Jehovah does not know everything, the example I gave above is only one instance. Of course one could speculate the nature of God anyway they want, but being true or not is a different matter.

I've never heard that before I stand corrected.