Reports of PS2 hardware peak are "bullshit" - Reev

Very valid. Like in the past PS1 kept outselling any new consoles for quite some time, it will probably happen to PS2 too.

The thing is, PS3 will come out so late (apparently) that by the time it comes out, maybe PS2 will have slowed down so much that the next gen consoles will be selling more than it. I think that's the reason wazoo did not mention PS3.
 
Well for one thing there's three players for the game market and not just two any longer. Not only that but the biggest companies like EA have already said PS2 has reached market saturation. At least in north america it's sales are no longer double of the next closest console or at least for the last two months.
 
Exactly. That's why wazoo said:

ps3 will come after if I recall well. So when ps3 will come, ps2 will be the 2nd best selling console before xenon/Gc2

Because PS2 IS slowing down. Xbox2/GC2 might have a whole year to pick up sales before PS3 comes out. And by the time that happens, Ps2 might not still be selling a lot, or at least not any more than Xbox2/GC2...
 
london-boy said:
Exactly. That's why wazoo said:

ps3 will come after if I recall well. So when ps3 will come, ps2 will be the 2nd best selling console before xenon/Gc2

Because PS2 IS slowing down. Xbox2/GC2 might have a whole year to pick up sales before PS3 comes out. And by the time that happens, Ps2 might not still be selling a lot, or at least not any more than Xbox2/GC2...
but he also expects the ps3 to outsell all 3 . Thus my asking what if it has shortages like the ps2 ? with bad shortages it wont outsell any of them and could also be out sold by a ps2 that have many more systems in the market.
 
jvd said:
london-boy said:
Exactly. That's why wazoo said:

ps3 will come after if I recall well. So when ps3 will come, ps2 will be the 2nd best selling console before xenon/Gc2

Because PS2 IS slowing down. Xbox2/GC2 might have a whole year to pick up sales before PS3 comes out. And by the time that happens, Ps2 might not still be selling a lot, or at least not any more than Xbox2/GC2...
but he also expects the ps3 to outsell all 3 . Thus my asking what if it has shortages like the ps2 ? with bad shortages it wont outsell any of them and could also be out sold by a ps2 that have many more systems in the market.

How much PS3 will sell is all up to review. The point is, there might not be that many Ps2 flying off the shelves by the time PS3 comes out, considering everyone will be in next-gen mood...
Who in 2007 will still be buying a PS2 (unless they re-design it, a la PSone)? I guess it could happen. But remember that PS1 kept selling because the only next gen console out at the time was PS2 (oh and DC, God bless her). I'm sure that if Xbox and GC came out before PS2, PS1 wouldn't have kept selling as much as it did for so long. Too many players...
 
mabye so. My point was directed at him though. Simply because he feels that the ps3 will out sell the other 3 systems. The past shows us that for all console launches as far back as i can remember (nes) system supplys were tight. So if the ps3 launchs 6-12 months later the xbox 2 and gc 2 might outsell it just for the fact that there are much more in the retail chain.

To think that the ps3 when launched (esp if launched after ) would be number 1 and the ps2 would be number 2 only because ps3 launched is a bit bias don't u think ?
 
Jvd, as usual in these kind of discussions. Anything can happen. :LOL:

We know that Sony will not wait until they have enough units to launch PS3, they'll want to get it out as soon as it's complete and there are games ready for launch. And that means there will be shortages. Unless the launch games are just not ready, in which case Sony might have some time to stock up and release a decent number of units. But I'm not too keen on that idea.
 
london boy said:
Unless they delay PS3 by a lot and they keep pulling out amazing titles to hold people off next gen machines, PS2 will likely not sell 140M units.
At current pace, PS2 will be over 100M by the time PS3 launches. Then it only needs to repeat PS1 sales (~30M since PS2 launched) across the next couple of years for that ~140M.
In the end that would put it at 40% improvement over PS1 total, and so far it's been doing pretty well to maintain that lead. There are some that say market increased by more then that in the last 5 years...

I remember at some point in time, people were laughing at the idea that PS2, even if it were more succesfull then PS1, would ever be able to reach 100M units... and now PS1 ended up breaking the mark first... :p
 
It is a bit difficult to predict the future, but based on the past, what we look is

- the ps1 was only at half its total sales when the ps2 was announced . Now, the ps3 is not even officially announced and the the ps2 is already over 60 (70?) Millions
- the ps1 sold more than the Gc and the xbox (not combined) in 2001, so i expect the ps2 to sell more than Gc2/Xenon in 2005, maybe even 2006 considering people will wait to see ps3 and the ps2, maybe repackaged, will benefit from the hype of the ps3 and the "maybe" succes of the PSP
- the ps1 reached faster the mass market price. Here in europe the ps2 is still the highest priced console and it leads the sales. What will happen when price reachs Little johnny money ??
- In europe, the ps1 is still on sale and is selling very well in "emerging" countries like East Europe. The ps2 is very far from being affordable in those countries. If you read Euro Sony boss, he is talking about those Euro parts.

Faf : we agree
 
There's no way to be positive, but "I can see" the PS2 getting to 140+ million within its lifespan, as it would reflect PS1's sales--which by all accounts PS2 is performing and holding value/sales better than. Will the market be big enough to support that? We're talking about 5+ years, so I believe so. The market is usually growing well, the allures and accepting of video-gaming broadening, and we'll probably see the PS2 (along with everyone else) entering even more markets as well.

We're not comparing PS2 to PS1, though, we're comparing what we see of PS2 in the future compared to now--to itself and to its competition--and by many accouts we've peaked. 2004 may hold relatively still due to a lot of solid title releases, but for many of the prime developers and big licenses this is the "last gasp" before they shift their focus to next generation's machines; hardware sales may keep up too, but that'll be due to price drops and bigger bundling, which reflects a diminishing profit return (or in some cases, extra expense) for the company.

So yes, in many ways I think we've hit the summit for this generation; you just won't be able to look at it examining one set of numbers.
 
Very valid. Like in the past PS1 kept outselling any new consoles for quite some time
If you want to go into history - was PS1 really outseling PS2 at any point? I don't quite remember what was going on back then.

Not only that but the biggest companies like EA have already said PS2 has reached market saturation
Actually, EA has lately been a very vocal advocate of the slow transition to next gen consoles, for the fact that 'old' market (that would be PS2 among others) will not be nearly taped out at the time next gen machines appear.
 
Last month, EA said that they were very angry to have left ps1 boat so soon and that they plan to support the ps2 much longer. Of course, you'll see some devs leaving the boat, hoping to sell their games on "visual" merits on the first next gen consoles out.

Anyway, if the ps2 does not sell more than ps1, it is proof that all the talk about the "growing market" is BS.

And finally, the ps2 selling up to 140M has nothing to do with the games we'll see on it in the future. With the ps2, it does not matter anymore what is available or not, it is a true massmarket product and the people it will sell between now and its end of life do not care about that. They will buy it because it is the only massmarket console.
 
marconelly! said:
Very valid. Like in the past PS1 kept outselling any new consoles for quite some time
If you want to go into history - was PS1 really outseling PS2 at any point? I don't quite remember what was going on back then.
Other than the very beginning with choked supplies, I don't think so. The PS2 sold about 10 million worldwide in its first year and it was only available in Japan for the majority of that first year. The PS1 sold under 10 million in that same timeframe (though not by much), which is still impressive but not "kept outselling." (Even in the first half-year with the PS2 not outside of Japan it sold ~3.5 million and the PS1 sold 3 million worldwide.)

In GC/Xbox's timeframe, the PS1 sold approximately 6 million units in their first year (I don't remember how GC/X did in that same span offhand, if someone wants to help me with that), but it also lowered from $99 to $49 (with price halvings elsewhere as well) halfway through that period.

Still looks good by comparison, but it's also a $50-100 machine compared to $200-300 machines and carrying lower tie-in ratios for those spans. (Though that's not something I can pull exact numbers for right now either. I just remember it from reference in other articles.)

Not only that but the biggest companies like EA have already said PS2 has reached market saturation
Actually, EA has lately been a very vocal advocate of the slow transition to next gen consoles, for the fact that 'old' market (that would be PS2 among others) will not be nearly taped out at the time next gen machines appear.[/quote]
Last month, EA said that they were very angry to have left ps1 boat so soon and that they plan to support the ps2 much longer. Of course, you'll see some devs leaving the boat, hoping to sell their games on "visual" merits on the first next gen consoles out.
Support will certainly be there, but EA is a mass-market publisher and will always offer food to the biggest installed bases. Excitement and sales thrive on key titles, though--and the developers who love making those ALSO love making those better, so they tend to move to new platforms as soon as they can.

We'll still see plenty of games for the PS2 for a long while (even the PS1 has had about 50% new games as the GameCube and Xbox so far), but that doesn't mean the market will be thriving on them. And it certainly doesn't say we haven't hit a summit now or soon--it just adjusts how slow the decline will be. No one is suggesting sales will just stop happening. :p

The only thing I see changing this is, say, the EyeToy growing even more popular and useful and appealing to more people than would normally pay attention to these systems, or similar types of peripherals lending broader mass-market appeal. I've seen plenty of people who still laugh at "video games" not think twice about picking up DDR and Karaoke Revolution and EyeToy for themselves and their kids, so that can certainly have an impact. (Consoles as "single-game machines" and "party games" become easier to accept as it all gets cheaper. And dual-use as a DVD player lends extra appeal as well. My brother and his wife, who I would label as "negative" on the gamer scale [in that they make fun of most gaming and the people who play them] still picked up a PS2 for their own appeal.)

Keep in mind, though, that this still won't point to "more profit"--just enhance sales. The profit on hardware, software, and the tie-in ratios will all likely still be in much decline, so while it still may be a nice chunk of change, how it would compare to the next generation--and the developer and gamers' push for bigger and better--is how you measure things up.
 
cthellis42 said:
Still looks good by comparison, but it's also a $50-100 machine compared to $200-300 machines and carrying lower tie-in ratios for those spans. (Though that's not something I can pull exact numbers for right now either. I just remember it from reference in other articles.)

But those 50$ machines are like 40$ profit and those 300$ machines were big money loser , so Sony got a lot of money in the end of life of the ps1.

Support will certainly be there, but EA is a mass-market publisher and will always offer food to the biggest installed bases.

and they are the biggest publisher too, so if they talk about supporting the ps2 longer, it is really because it will yield to a pile of cash for them.


We'll still see plenty of games for the PS2 for a long while (even the PS1 has had about 50% new games as the GameCube and Xbox so far), but that doesn't mean the market will be thriving on them.

not the market as you see it, but the general mass market, the one you never see on the internet, it will be very pleased with that.

And it certainly doesn't say we haven't hit a summit now or soon--it just adjusts how slow the decline will be. No one is suggesting sales will just stop happening. :p

yep
 
Marc said:
If you want to go into history - was PS1 really outseling PS2 at any point? I don't quite remember what was going on back then.
It did for a few months during the Japan only period for PS2.

Shipments for the whole first year...
PS2 : 10.61 milion during 2000/3/6 - 2001/3/31
PS1 : 9.31 during 2000/3/31 - 2001/3/31
It was a fairly close race, thanks to PS2 production problems.

Anyway, if PSP takes off, PS2 will continue with much stronger software support then PS1 had in later days. With the possible PSTwo redesign, I see it improving on PSOne performance, not just matching it.
 
with psp and the fact that there are a ton of ports / enahnced games coming it may just end up hurting the the pstwo . Since this time there is a real portable
 
wazoo said:
But those 50$ machines are like 40$ profit and those 300$ machines were big money loser , so Sony got a lot of money in the end of life of the ps1.
Please-oh-please show me the hardware profit figures to support your plucked-from-air numbers or someplace definitive that labels the manufacturing cost of the machines over time. Certainly in the first year we'll see less profit from the new machines, but they're the ones that get all the redesigning and cost-saving measures (which in PS2's case happened quite often). We're not talking about 1 year, we're looking at four. And we're looking at how PS2's future trend will compare to now (like unto how PS1 compared from 1999 on to its first four years). The PS1 stayed low and to my knowledge hadn't been touched since mid-2000 (PS One), while the PS2 stayed higher, longer, and got the manufacturing and cost-cutting measures.

Support will certainly be there, but EA is a mass-market publisher and will always offer food to the biggest installed bases.
and they are the biggest publisher too, so if they talk about supporting the ps2 longer, it is really because it will yield to a pile of cash for them.
But it will reflect what we see now on the PS1 side, just a bit mellower and extended--lots of the "same thing" and sequels. Simpler games, movie license titles, little in the way of engine improvements, few new concept games... It might be a bit better this time, but overall I don't predict THAT much. Probably will be a better comparison than the first year of PS2's life mainly because they'll be resisting a truncated lifespan more, but after year two...? Three...? Games will be getting cheaper as well, as no one will pay $50 for "last generation's games" when they're paying that much for current ones.

EA supports PS1 still as well. (Heck, Madden 2005 is coming out on it, and FIFA... Their sports titles will continue ad infinitum if they can help it. ;) ) It kinda points to what one can expect over time, though. EA's revenue trend PS1/PS2 during their past four fiscal years:

2000: PS1 = 41%, PS2 = 0
2001: PS1 = 23%, PS2 = 20%
2002: PS1 = 11%, PS2 = 28%
2003: PS1 = 4%, PS2 = 37%

(For EA, percentage-wise, PS1's revenue apex was in 1999, with a slight downturn in 2000 and then steep decline.)

Granted I don't know if it keeps the same ratio for profit (I figure it's similar, but if anyone else knows...?) but PS2 nearly caught up in its first year of availability and surpassed it by a longshot afterwards. EA knows how important next generation's software will be as well. If they throw more support to continuing PS2 titles they can ease the trend, bit it will still move steadily downward. (Keep in mind marketing dollars and press attention--visability--will all move to the next generation, so they'd have to make up for that as well, not just "make more games" by contrast.)

We'll still see plenty of games for the PS2 for a long while (even the PS1 has had about 50% new games as the GameCube and Xbox so far), but that doesn't mean the market will be thriving on them.
not the market as you see it, but the general mass market, the one you never see on the internet, it will be very pleased with that.
What market are you looking at? Me, I tend to look at financial numbers when they present themselves. The PS1 has had decent staying power, and I expect the PS2 to have more, but very soon they just don't compare to the next generation after it steals their thunder.
 
Jvd,
I was thinking in lines of shared codebases and content creation - not just ports.
Anyway, it's still a living room console - not to mention people that will buy one at those prices aren't in the market for uber expensive gadgets like PSP. They aren't even in the market for normally priced game gadgets.

And personally I would be more concerned about PSP being the one to get hurt by less original content - if anything.
 
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