PS2 is still the best designed console in terms of hardware ever (And that isn't a joke) (or is it?)

Nothing on 360 ever looked as good as the Uncharted sequels, Killzone 3, TLOU or God of War 3/Ascension. I may even be forgetting some others.
All of those are first party and I think everyone can admit that Microsoft's first party has been lacking for an incredibly long time in the graphics department. If it weren't for Epic the 360 would have been a total bust IMO and Epic was a 2nd party.
 
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Epic despite being second party was fully wizards on unlocking the power of the 360 and the jump from gears 1 to gears 3 is almost a generation in itself.

Ninja gaiden 2 and Bayonetta from team ninja and platinum also are generally considered 360 built as they utilized all of the 360s power to it's fullest effect and most infamously had ports that were mere afterthoughts. Even bungie themselves made beautiful looking fps with large scale and tons of AI without losing a beat.

All of this is to say, I think the SPUs, the ps3s secret sauce, when fully utilized did provide better graphics rendering tech than the 360 could muster.

But the 360s secret sauce with the edram sacrificed pure graphics for pushing as much on screen as possible.

the developers of each console were pushed to certain types of strengths due to how the hardware was structured. PS3 was best utilized with graphically intense linear setpiece games like ff13, god of war 3/ascension, killzone 2/3, uncharted 2/3 etc. And 360 was best utilized with wider scale games and/or tons of alpha particles and effects flying around with lots of AI. (Bayonetta/ninja gaiden 2, gears franchise, halo 3/odst/reach)
 
I mean, those games look great, but from personal experience they also have performance issues that made then near unplayable for me.
Uncharted 2 and 3, kz 2 and 3 and God of war 3 and ascension didn't have many framedrops at all

You can even go back and check the digital foundry archives rich did at the time. They are relatively smooth compared to many other PS3 or 360 games of the generation
 
I think "best console Hardware" means most easily extractable performance. It probably goes to the Xbox 360 at launch.
Between PS3 and 360 sure. But not the best ever by any means. having to fit everything in the 10mb framebuffer was very tough for a lot of devs who wanted to actually fully utilize the machine although it was doable

The 8th gen machines by comparison were much more easily usable out of the gate without much weirdness..
 
I think "best console Hardware" means most easily extractable performance. It probably goes to the Xbox 360 at launch.
Indeed but I think it can be also applied for games released in the end. I think many first party sony games (TLOU, UC, GoW) looked better than some MS first party games only because X360 was underused. But for multiplats the king was x360 for the vast majority of the games and even in the end when developers fully unlocked X360 / PS3 hardware games like MGS5 ran much better on X360 (and that was a japanese developer that usually favored Sony consoles).

And look at what Bluepoint could extract from X360 hardware with Titanfall. Incredible stuff. The game was actually running better in some levels than on XB1!
 
Eh...360 Titanfall was a different game. So the standards of the xb1 version shouldent count.

PS3s RSX gpu was weaker than 360s xenos on top of split ram making things much harder for developers to utilize the system which lead to worse multiplats.
 
I wonder what 'small' changes to hardware would have made ps2 more performant and more approachable.

If I remember correctly GS didn't have proper polygon clipping, so developers had to use precious VU memory for clipping routine.

GS in general was bad in terms of features, no proper multitexturing. (Or tri/anisotropic filtering etc.)
 
Is just more memory for the graphics a small change ? Like, 4 => 8m, plus maybe texture compression, but that's it.

The lack of multitexturing was not a big deal I believe, I read that some devs were just doing pass after pass since the fillrate was very high for the time, or something like that ?
 
Think about it another way.

PS2 vs. Xbox.

One was a custom designed piece of hardware that was very hard to extract performance out of. The other was an easy to develop for piece of hardware using common desktop PC technology.

In general games looked significantly better and performed significantly better on the Xbox. Obviously, all the games were on PS2 because that was the dominant console not because it was the better console.

Sure the argument can be made that the Xbox came out a year later, so it has a technology advantage.

So, in games that were playable on both consoles, Xbox generally gave a much better user experience.

PS3 vs. X360.

Well, the PS3 came out a year later than the X360, so the X360 can't lay claim to releasing later with an advantage. Instead we should be saying that PS3 should have a technology advantage since it launched later.

Very different hardware architectures. PS3 is significantly more powerful in many ways but is also significantly harder to program for. X360 had some advantages and disadvantages as well, but it was significantly easier to develop on.

Hence, the vast majority of multiplatform games looked or performed better on the X360. Sure if you could afford the time and effort to try to extract performance out of the PS3 you could get some pretty good results. And towards the end of the generation multiplatform games on PS3 started to look and perform as good as they did on the X360. Not because it intrinsically suddenly became easier to program for, but developers could now use shared libraries that made it easier (but still not as easy as the X360) to develop games on the PS3. Basically the closer it got to X360's ease of development, the closer it got to matching the look and performance of games on X360.

Sure, 1st party developers that can afford to spend significantly more time attempting to extract performance out of a difficult to develop for piece of hardware could do some really nice things. But everyone else who didn't have that time? They were basically releasing worse versions on PS3 of games that were released on X360. And that only started to change as they got access to shared libraries from those 1st party developers.

So, which would be the better design from an end user POV? The one that starts out looking and performing well right out of the gate compared to the competition and basically still matches it at the end of the generation? Or the one that looks significantly worse at the start of the generation but can finally match the other by the end of the generation?

Neither PS2 nor PS3 are making a case that custom hard to develop for architectures are better for either the consumer or the developer. Generally speaking the easier it is for a developer to create something for a platform, the better the end user experience will be.

As such, Sony decided to follow Microsoft's lead, not only because custom hardware is expensive and requires you to have far more expensive to employ engineers on your payrol, but also because they were increasingly losing developers to the Xbox ecosystem (by this, I mean developers were choosing Xbox as the primary development platform due to ease of development). And that also creates it's own advantages that will be experienced by end users. Primary development platform means games released for it will have more time, polish and attention to ensuring it runs and looks well on that platform versus other platforms regardless of any hardware differences.

So, as such, had Sony stuck with custom hardware, even if that hardware was significantly more powerful than hardware that shared common technology with PCs, the vast majority of their games would at best have looked and performed similarly to a less powerful console using PC technology and at worst would both perform worse and look worse due to the difficulty extracting performance from the custom hardware.

Now, is custom hardware more interesting than PC derived hardware? Yes, because it's an oddity. And oddities are always interesting. Could it be more powerful? Quite possibly. Would that potential power translate into most end user experiences on that hardware? Well, history tells us that no, it wouldn't when compared to a relatively similarly performing piece of hardware using slightly customized general purpose PC hardware. At least not until the ease of development started to approach the ease of development of using slightly customized PC hardware.

Regards,
SB
I think the PS3 was mostly suffering from a delayed GPU design and the separate memory pools. If the PS3 came with unified memory and a well designed GPU as capable as the 360's it would have obliterated it.
About PS2, I think Sony made the best design they could given the timeframe and what was available. The XBOX was a bruteforce design that businesswise made zero sense. It ate MS billions, with barely any opportunity to optimize the manufacturing process down the line. PS2's design allowed it to cut cost of production and reduce size so much that it became smaller than a DVD case.
Imagine, that thing pulling out graphics such as ZOE2, or GT4 or Tekken 4.
Think about it. A custom made hardware with custom made GPU that, despite on paper being so weak it still could bring us this and compete with its more modern competitors (and especially impressive considering XBOX with its 64MB of unified memory and a state of the art modern GPU and triple the CPU speed:
 
Is just more memory for the graphics a small change ? Like, 4 => 8m, plus maybe texture compression, but that's it.

The lack of multitexturing was not a big deal I believe, I read that some devs were just doing pass after pass since the fillrate was very high for the time, or something like that ?
Memory was on chip, so doubling transistor budget would have been incredibly expensive.


Yes, they rerendered polygons to do multipass fx.

Things like writing to destination alpha to create mask for pass rendering environment map was common trick. (Puddles, Windows.. etc.)

A lot could have been easier with something closer to modern texture sampling.
 
360 was a pain in the ass because of the need to use tiling if you wanted to use MSAA.
That depends on resolution, though. And I don't think it was so much of a pain as to prevent developers from doing it, because they did it often.
Uncharted 2 and 3, kz 2 and 3 and God of war 3 and ascension didn't have many framedrops at all

You can even go back and check the digital foundry archives rich did at the time. They are relatively smooth compared to many other PS3 or 360 games of the generation
I don't really remember Uncharted 2 having issues, but U3 and Killzone 3 did for sure. And both God of Wars as well. I remember all of those games spending long stretches of time in the "cinematic" range of framerates. But maybe it was input latency with Killzone.
 
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