Remember this post by Tommy McClain about XBox2?

[Joe DeFuria]

Then there's this quote from the article that the Inquirer linked:

(Is this old news, BTW? - EDIT- Answered my own question...this is from April 2003....)

http://www.designchain.com/coverstory.asp?issue=spring03

IBM has not announced when it will release the final chip, but the Cell project was originally envisioned as taking five years, suggesting that the final product may not be ready until as late as 2007. Although Sony refuses to talk about its future plans for the chip, it does admit that the Cell chip will not be the CPU in the Playstation3, reportedly slated for release in 2005.

I don't visit the console forum regularly, and I'm the first to admit I don't keep fully abreast of the latest console tech developments...but from what I gathered, "Cell" was assumed to be the engine powering PS3. Right or wrong?

Or is the article referring to a particular "IBM Fabbed" cell implementation not being in the PS3, not ruling out some other "cell" implementation that could be in PS3?

Edit - has the "Cell not being used in PS3" been officially debunked by Sony?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

...and Cell being in over 50M+ ps3's won't return 2 billion dollars?

Well, presumably the more PS3's sold, the more LOSS on cell Sony will take. It'll be up to software costs to recoup the investment plus losses in hardware sales.

The inquirer doesn't tend to think, not only do they know nothing about Cell; they love to spread bullshit.

True, of course.

 

[Paul]

Joe, Cell not being on time for a 2005 release was debunked many times by Sony.

Even on July 24th Sony again said that Cell will be in devices 2005, everything is moving along smoothly and the processor is going into mass production 2004.

Kutaragi has said that he will demo Cell technology by march 2004 also.

Well, presumably the more PS3's sold, the more LOSS on cell Sony will take.

Initally yes money will be lost, but it will be like PS2 in that over time they make money on each console sold. Software will make them even more money, not to mention Sony buys over 8 billion in IC anually, with Cell they don't have to buy other companies IC to put into their products. This is why Sony and not only SCEI is so interested in Cell.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Joe, Cell not being on time for a 2005 release was debunked many times by Sony.

Source? (Seriously, I'm not even implying this is not true, but I did some basic googling for a while and came up empty.)

Even on July 24th Sony again said that Cell will be in devices 2005, everything is moving along smoothly and the processor is going into mass production 2004.

Which "processor"? Cell is an architecture, not a processor, correct?

Kutaragi has said that he will demo Cell technology by march 2004 also.

Cool...demo an actual chip or prototype...or demo a simulation of the capabilities of the technology? (Technology demonstration, or product demonstration?)

Again, I'm really not trying to be a hard-ass, but I've seen all kids of PR and statements from all kinds of companies being assumed to mean one thing...when it's actually more open-ended.

I'm just trying to get my own idea / evgaluation of what the real situation is, and to do that, I need to see some actual sources, and see what was actually said.

Initally yes money will be lost, but it will be like PS2 in that over time they make money on each console sold.

Sure, that's the goal.

Software will make them even more money, not to mention Sony buys over 8 billion in IC anually, with Cell they don't have to buy other companies IC to put into their products. This is why Sony and not only SCEI is so interested in Cell.

Cell won't magically "replace" all of Sony's 3rd party IC. Just becoming more vertically integrated doesn't necessarily mean that it's a more efficient model. It certainly can be, of course. There's no rule that says "developing it in house is cheaper and/or better" than buying from 3rd parties.

 

[V3]

(Is this old news, BTW? - EDIT- Answered my own question...this is from April 2003....)

Its old news, there is already a thread on it. There are some newer information.

But for something concrete we just refer to the patent, their previous patent on related things for PS2 was very close, so its a good guess on PS3 too, I suppose.

 

[V3]

The patent is here

 

[Paul]

Source? (Seriously, I'm not even implying this is not true, but I did some basic googling for a while and came up empty.)

Since the project began in 2001 the goal was to create a processor for PS3(IBM won the PS3 contract), it always had a project completion date of 2005. A certain article came up around april that said that the processor was not for PS3 and late.

A week or two later, SCEI announced that it would spend 200 billion yen over 3 years to mass produce Cell.

Toshiba also said that the their Oita 65 nm lines would mass produce Cell in 2004, this being for the initial ps3 launch of course than the sony made fabs take over when they are ready.

Of course SCEI makes playstations.. so..

With this investment, SCEI will manufacture the new microprocessor for the broadband era, code-named "Cell", as well as other system LSIs, to be used for the next generation computer entertainment system.

Next generation computer entertainment system is what SCEI has been calling PS3, Okamoto at gdc 2002 also mentioned ps3 under such names as "next generation" and the likes.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200304/03-0421E/

So with this article, any rumours of no Cell for ps3 were indeed crushed as SCEI was spending 200 billion yen to mass produce it.

The cell patent(a version of it) even states Playstation 3 right in it..

ALL news articles about Cell after this news of investement say that Cell will be the main engine behind PS3.

Among the announcements include confirmation that the Cell processor will be the main engine behind the PlayStation 3

This was at a press conference concering the Cell investement by scei

http://www.gamepro.com/gamepro/famitsu/games/news/29018.shtml

Which "processor"? Cell is an architecture, not a processor, correct?

While Cell is a architecture.. Sony has been talking it up as a chip.

And infact what SCEI is mass producing is a version of Cell, they state they are producing Cell...

"With this investment, SCEI will manufacture the new microprocessor for the broadband era, code-named "Cell""

Microprocessor is the key word, they are developing *a* chip is for sure.

Here are kutaragi's comments on Cell from an interview. Keep in mind, Kutaragi is in charge of playstations so anything he is working on has direct relavence to playstation's.

One CELL has a capacity to have 1TFLOPS performance and an aggregation of 1,000 CELLs would have 1P (Pets) FLOPS.

http://ne.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/2001/30aniv/int5_1.html

Cool...demo an actual chip or prototype...or demo a simulation of the capabilities of the technology? (Technology demonstration, or product demonstration?)

"Development is proceeding smoothly, and we can present a test system by the end of the fiscal year,"

Quote by Kutaragi himself.

Keep in mind The Chip is going into mass production around march 2004.. so I imagine this test is just a specal chip taken off the line.

Cell won't magically "replace" all of Sony's 3rd party IC.

This is what Sony wants, they want Cell in all their products. Vince will tell you more about this.

 

[cthellis42]

Keep in mind, Kutaragi is in charge of playstations so anything he is working on has direct relavence to playstation's.

Kutaragi the failed electrician?

(Sorry, sorry! It's just I hadn't heard that silliness for so long I began to miss it... )

 

[Vince]

Everything covered here has been talked about in 10+ page threads before - including that POS Inquierer piece that has Cell being used in PS4. Try searching.

Cell won't magically "replace" all of Sony's 3rd party IC. Just becoming more vertically integrated doesn't necessarily mean that it's a more efficient model. It certainly can be, of course. There's no rule that says "developing it in house is cheaper and/or better" than buying from 3rd parties

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame49.html

 

[jvd]

Just to point out sony said the chpi would go into mass production end of fiscal year 2004 . Which is in 2005 calander year . Just my little 2cents .

 

[Paul]

Jvd, those are the Sony plants not the Toshiba Plant.

Toshiba is investing 200 billion yen of its own on a new Cell manufacturing facility in Japan's Oita prefecture that's scheduled to begin building chips in quantity near the beginning of the next fiscal year in March.

http://www.gamepro.com/gamepro/famitsu/games/news/29883.shtml

 

[jvd]

Jvd, those are the Sony plants not the Toshiba Plant.

Toshiba is investing 200 billion yen of its own on a new Cell manufacturing facility in Japan's Oita prefecture that's scheduled to begin building chips in quantity near the beginning of the next fiscal year in March.

http://www.gamepro.com/gamepro/famitsu/games/news/29883.shtml

So will toshiba be making the cell chips for the ps3 or are they using it for thier own reasons ? Why would sony invest so much money if that were the case

 

[Paul]

Sony's plants wont be ontime for a 2005 launch, although they will mass produce in 2005.

Toshiba is just mass producing Cell for SCEI for the immediate PS3 launch, with the Sony fabs taking over eventually. Toshiba won't make PS3 chips forever no doubt.

I'm pretty sure with the 200 billion yen investement Sony gave a part of that to Toshiba to help cover the costs of the new 65 nm lines.

Toshiba is now working with Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI) on joint implementation of production facilities for the manufacture of SCEI’s products in Oita’s new clean room. The two companies will confirm details in due course, including the amount and timing of SCEI’s investment.

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2003_04/pr2101.htm

 

[Vince]

So will toshiba be making the cell chips for the ps3 or are they using it for thier own reasons ? Why would sony invest so much money if that were the case

It announces that the same day, Toshiba considerably invests 400 hundred million Yen on the factory where this year and EE are produced, constructs the 300mm wafer corresponding ridge. Mass production is started from 2004 seniority period latter halves, 12,500/month is produced. The posture which for the time being develops 65nm process on the center, in the future moves to 45nm process. Investment sum total to the new buildings plans approximately 2,000 hundred million Yen.

For SCEI being joint with SCEI in the new buildings, it plans also the fact that it installs the production device. Investment ratio and the like has made undecided.

Also beauty English Vice-President Fujii of the Toshiba semi-conductor corporation attends concert. "The emotion engine which presently has been produced is the custom product for SCEI, but as for CELL that it develops as the general-purpose product" you expressed, you talked the enthusiasm which is bet on the semiconductor business of SONY and IBM.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Thanks much for the info and links Paul.

I'll look over them over the next few days, I'll probably have a few questions.

Vince, thanks for nothing.

 

[cthellis42]

Vince, thanks for nothing.

Oh for criminently's sake, cut it out.

 

[Vince]

Vince, thanks for nothing.

Oh for criminently's sake, cut it out.

This guys too cute. Joe, between Panajev and I, we've probobly nearing 500 posts on the Cell architecture. Add in everyone else and it's probobly well over 2,000. There is 364 topics with Cell in them. Search for them.

 

[Paul]

Yup, this very forum houses the most Cell/PS3 information anyone will ever find on the net. Hundreds of pages on it.

Now let's hope the server doesn't crash and it's all lost.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

This guys too cute. Joe, between Panajev and I, we've probobly nearing 500 posts on the Cell architecture. Add in everyone else and it's probobly well over 2,000. There is 364 topics with Cell in them. Search for them.

Because searching through those 2000 posts and 364 topics is much more efficient than politely asking someone (who likely has them right at his disposal) for a few sources?

Now, had I asked Paul in some rude or "demanding" type of way, I can see an objection...

 

[Megadrive1988]

hehe, that's because Cell is pretty damn interesting, and is currently the only known console-specific CPU for next-gen consoles.