R520 = Dissapointment

[Tim]

And I can give you a bunch of games where it's not the case.

Also, most reviews see the 7800 in the lead with FarCry


Crush = at least 50% faster in everything and anything.

So the 7800GTX did not crush the x850xt.

 

[_xxx_]

So the 7800GTX did not crush the x850xt.

Of course not, why do you come up with that? GTX is a few months old and R520 was supposed to be "be-all-end-all" nV-killer chip. While it certainly is a bit better, it missed its target (only because it came so late, I may add).

 

[Subtlesnake]

And I can give you a bunch of games where it's not the case.

Also, most reviews see the 7800 in the lead with FarCry

Maybe without AA and AF. I wonder how much of the X1800's advantage comes from the higher performance AA and AF modes.

Crush = at least 50% faster in everything and anything.

Well, yeah, but this was a card which was meant to compete in the same generation as the 7800, with a June or July release. If the retail price drops to GTX levels, then it will be able to do just that.

 

[_xxx_]

That's why I said "ONLY because it came too late" in the post before your last

 

[Tim]

Of course not, why do you come up with that? GTX is a few months old and R520 was supposed to be "be-all-end-all" nV-killer chip. While it certainly is a bit better, it missed its target (only because it came so late, I may add).

Whoes target? Anyone expected that the x1800xt would crush the 7800GTX was out of their mind. The general expectation and the target was that the x1800xt should edge out the GTX and it did.

I have done a bit of counting wins and looses:

x1800xt wins:
Call of Duty 2
Fear Demo
Half-life 2 and Half-Life 2 : Lost Coast
Counter Strike Source: VST
Splinter Cell: Chaos Teory
Battlefield 2

7800GTX wins:
Doom 3
Ridick
Serius Sam 2 Demo
Pacific Fighters
IL2

Draws:
Need for speed Underground 2
Fable
Day of Defeat
Everquest 2
Day of Defeat: Source
Guild wars

Of the six draws NVIDIA has the edge in three each. Ati has one more win (two if you count both Half-life 2 and Loast Coast) and the wins are general higher profile titles.

 

[ondaedg]

Just a few notes on Shader Model 3.0:

• At nv40 launch time, it was *completely* irrelevant because no titles used it at that time.
  
• At this moment, right now, as I write this, sm 3.0 is still mostly irrelevant. A smattering of titles use it. It's usefulness has slowly increased over the recent past.
  
• Over the next year, it will become more and more relevant. More and more titles will be using it. It's usefulness will rapidly increase in the forseeable future.

It shouldn't take much effort to figure out why a year ago one could say sm 3.0 wouldn't be a factor in choosing a vidcard but that same person will consider it a factor today.

Here's a comparable situation: how well vidcards support Windows Vista doesn't matter the slightest right now but it will matter in 2007.

I can't fathom why you say the change in opinion is "sudden" since it's taken more then a year to happen. It's neither sudden nor unexpected. I remember saying early this year that sm 3.0 would start to matter in 2006. So, in my case at least, my opinion on sm 3.0 really hasn't changed much, if at all.

I agree that a year of time has passed by and that should be relevant with regards to SM 3.0. I feel that most of us who purchased a card during the R4xx and GF68xx series will more than likely keep that card and continue to use it. Perhaps it could be argued in your favor that SM3.0 speed at that time isn't fast enough in the GF 68xx series to warrant the decision.

 

[John Reynolds]

There's also a very clear API pattern in those performance leads.

 

[Blastman]

Well you can add HL2, Collin McRae 05 to the wins for ATI, Act of War tie.

hardwarefr …7800GTX …X1800 XT … 12x10-4AA/16AF …

HL2 … … … … 103.2 … … 120.1
Doom3 … … … .128.2 … … 109.1
Farcry … … … … 60.3 … … 76.4
SC : CT … … … .48.4 … … 62.7
Collin McR 05 ..…56.9 … …. 72.6
Act of War … … .. 69.6 … … 70.2
IL2 - PF … … … ..41.8 … ….31.3

The only games the 7800 GTX is winning in are OGL. The X1800 is either winning in DX or tieing. Considering the vast majority of games are DX (90%+), the X1800 is looking pretty good.

 

[_xxx_]

Whoes target? Anyone expected that the x1800xt would crush the 7800GTX was out of their mind. The general expectation and the target was that the x1800xt should edge out the GTX and it did.

You're talking about the B3D crowd and alike, I'm talking about the "not-so-in-the-know masses"

 

[Tim]

There's also a very clear API pattern in those performance leads.

Yes tree 3/5 are OpenGl also stencil shadows seems to be an important factor as Ati looses big in two games with heavy stencil shadow usage (not surprize) - it seems that Ati has decided to just ignoire stencil performance (it does not seem like the R580 is going to have any improvements in this area). Updated the list:

x1800xt wins (7):
Call of Duty 2
Collin McR 05
Fear Demo
Half-life 2 and Half-Life 2 : Lost Coast
Counter Strike Source: VST
Splinter Cell: Chaos Teory
Battlefield 2

7800GTX wins (5):
Doom 3
Ridick
Serius Sam 2 Demo (Hexus shows a win for the GTX, but extremetech has a win for the x1800xt it stays as a GTX win for now)
Pacific Fighters
IL2

Draws (7):
Act of War
Need for speed Underground 2
Fable
Day of Defeat
Everquest 2
Day of Defeat: Source
Guild wars
(some of these draws could move up as a win, it seems some reviews has some pretty different results an example TechReport has the GTX beating the GTX in Guild Wars by about 10% at PC-Perspective the opposite is true).

 

[Kombatant]

You're talking about the B3D crowd and alike, I'm talking about the "not-so-in-the-know masses"

Yup, you can't believe the things I've read over at Rage3D the past months...

 

[digitalwanderer]

Yup, you can't believe the things I've read over at Rage3D the past months...

I haven't even cruised the forums there since Hanners perma-banned me, has it gotten worse? Give me a quick update...it's been a while.

 

[_xxx_]

Yes tree 3/5 are OpenGl also stencil shadows seems to be an important factor as Ati looses big in two games with heavy stencil shadow usage (not surprize) - it seems that Ati has decided to just ignoire stencil performance (it does not seem like the R580 is going to have any improvements in this area). Updated the list:

Those results vary in different reviews and depend on the demo/level/resolution/IQ-settings etc., so what's your point (EDIT: counting "wins" and such)? We all know that XT is generally more or less faster than the GTX or will soon be when they tweak their drivers a bit.

The point is that it's not significantly faster overall.

 

[John Reynolds]

The point is that it's not significantly faster overall.

Well, the real point is that you're applying your own personal standard in this discussion. Not everyone feels the same way or hold the same views. For me, 20% faster in high res with AA is enough for me to favor one product over another, all else being roughly equal.

 

[Jawed]

What I think is sorta funny is that when GTX came out, "it's CPU-limited" was the rally-cry whenever GTX was only a few FPS faster than X850XTPE.

When you take the "CPU-limited" benchmarks out, how does it look?

I've actually stopped trying to read benchmarks. It's so hard to see any meaningful comparisons. [long pointless ramble deleted]

Jawed

 

[Tim]

Those results vary in different reviews and depend on the demo/level/resolution/IQ-settings etc.

Most reviews are pretty much in line, with a few exeptions.

, so what's your point (EDIT: counting "wins" and such)? We all know that XT is generally more or less faster than the GTX or will soon be when they tweak their drivers a bit.
The point is that it's not significantly faster overall.

And nobody in their right mind expected it to be way faster than the GTX, but it is significantly faster by atleast 10-15% overall (with AF+AA and high res) seen over all the availeble reviews it draws or wins in most high-profile titles and in some games with more than 20% (or even more than 30%) .

 

[Deleted member 2197]

Wonder if drivers make a difference ... The Driver Heaven review used 2 drivers for the GTX, the 78.03's (official) and the 81.82's (beta). Based on the differences in terms of performance, it seems they do make a difference. Keep in mind these are not the Black & White 2 beta drivers Nvidia made available the other day.

http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/r520reviewxvxv/HL2.htm

Pharma

 

[Kombatant]

I haven't even cruised the forums there since Hanners perma-banned me, has it gotten worse? Give me a quick update...it's been a while.

Well, R3D of today has nothing to do with R3D of the past; much more balanced as far as gfx preferences are concerned. But there were the odd people who came in, and posted about 32pipe monsters that would crush nV, and that made several people getting their hopes way up high.

 

[Kombatant]

Wonder if drivers make a difference ... The Driver Heaven review used 2 drivers for the GTX, the 78.03's (official) and the 81.82's (beta). Based on the differences in terms of performance, it seems they do make a difference. Keep in mind these are not the Black & White 2 beta drivers Nvidia made available the other day.

http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/r520reviewxvxv/HL2.htm

Pharma

Drivers do make a difference, both in ATI's and nVidia's cases. I especially expect better performance for ATI's cards when engineers start writing better code for the new features of the X1000 family (especially their new mem controller)

 

[Sxotty]

Arg, I hate how the DH thing is setup with the stupid pic of ruby and such... Jeez...