40 fps, how difficult is it to implement?

[ZebMacahan]

Well developers will need to make sure there's enough head room to ensure their game can lock to 40fps, which depending on the game may have to be something they plan for during to dev cycle to ensure they have enough in the frame time budget to allow it.

But while I get it looks janky for you on your OLED is it enough of a general problem for developers to bother with? I think not.

I dont know how many players use OLEDs but Im sure im not the only one. LCD seem to get faster pixel response times so maybe judder will be a problem for some LCD users too?

Going by the replies here I get the feeling that hitting 40 (maybe at a lower resolution?) would be easier than implementing a RT perfomance mode, so Im hoping this will become more common. Apparently Dead Space quality mode ran in in the 40-50s before that capped it at 30 with a patch.

 

[davis.anthony]

Going by the replies here I get the feeling that hitting 40 (maybe at a lower resolution?) would be easier than implementing a RT perfomance mode, so Im hoping this will become more common. Apparently Dead Space quality mode ran in in the 40-50s before that capped it at 30 with a patch.

Why would it become more common when the TV's that can use such a mode are not?

 

[ZebMacahan]

Why would it become more common when the TV's that can use such a made are not?

More hope than prediction I suppose.

OLEDs are being awarded gaming TV of the year year after year without anyone mentioning the awful judder at 30 fps, which seem strange to me if 30 fps still will be common (and if people want to play their old games). Sony seem to be doing more OLEDs, LCD pixel response are getting faster. Maybe Sony will push for it so people with their Sony OLEDs still can enjoy better graphics on their PS5s. What I have come to understand is that its not that difficult to implement, so Im really hoping.

Which games have this feature? I know of Hoirzon forbidden west, ratchet and clank, and a plague tale reqiuem. Any more games have this feature?

 

[ZebMacahan]

When reading TV reviews TVs seem to get higher gaming score the faster pixel response they have. But considering motion judder, shouldnt there be some kind of goldilocks zone? A pixel response fast enough to avoid distracting ghost trails or whatever at 60 fps, but still slow enough for making 30 fps look good?

 

[davis.anthony]

OLEDs are being awarded gaming TV of the year year after year without anyone mentioning the awful judder at 30 fps.

Did you ever think that may be because for the vast majority of OLED owners it's not a problem?

 

[ZebMacahan]

Did you ever think that may be because for the vast majority of OLED owners it's not a problem?

Yes.

I dont know how many people notice it. Is there any data on that? I know people who cant stand it, they didnt know about it before they got their TVs.
Maybe there is a bigger push for 60 fps because people think they´re just used to 60 fps and dont realise 30 fps look alot worse on their new TVs than it did on their old TVs. Not that 60 fps isnt a lot better.

 

[Riddlewire]

Finally found the previous discussion about 120 Hz displays, the listing of sets that are NOT Sony which would benefit looks to be just 1 display, the Samsung KS8000.

Nah, there were others. The LG SM8600, for example. 120hz native but no VRR support.
Also, I think all TVs marketed as "3D TVs" had 120hz panels, and those certainly didn't have VRR.
Additionally, none of them (obviously) could do 120hz at 4K, since they were too old to support HDMI 2.1.
Although RTINGS says that the SM8600 could display 1440p at 120hz.

 

[Cynicalking]

Nah, there were others. The LG SM8600, for example. 120hz native but no VRR support.
Also, I think all TVs marketed as "3D TVs" had 120hz panels, and those certainly didn't have VRR.
Additionally, none of them (obviously) could do 120hz at 4K, since they were too old to support HDMI 2.1.
Although RTINGS says that the SM8600 could display 1440p at 120hz.

Not all 3D Tvs were 120hz. It depended on how 3D was achieved, there were various implementations.

 

[BRiT]

Also, I'm not sure if gamers would rather have 1080p SDR at 40 FPS (using 120 Hz) instead of 4K HDR at 30 FPS on all those TVs. There's more than just a 30 fps / 40 fps option being presented.

 

[cwjs]

50% decrease in frame length is a big perceptual upgrade, and low frame-rates are very noticable on oleds because of the very fast switch between frames compared to other technologies makes the framerate feel more perceptually "jerky". I suspect the hardest part is just maintaining another performance target you have to test and optimize for, which is absolutely not trivial.

OLEDs are being awarded gaming TV of the year year after year without anyone mentioning the awful judder at 30 fps, which seem strange to me if 30 fps still will be common (and if people want to play their old games).

This is heavily highlighted by reviewers, it had been in RTings' oled reviews for years when I bought mine a couple years back (hopefully they haven't removed the info.) The thing is that this judder is a feature of the panel, it's the same property that makes the response times so great. Kinda strange the software doesn't have an "interoplation" mode which fades from the last frame at closer to lcd speeds I suppose.

 

[Albuquerque]

Just to be clear on the math, a change from 30FPS to 40FPS is not a reduction of 50% frame time. Its 25/33.33 = 0.75 or a 25% reduction in frame time.

50% reduction would be a literal doubling in frame rate, so 30 to 60FPS.

 

[ZebMacahan]

I played some more plague tale yesterday. I have mostly been in a city, but now I´m in a large outdoor environment with a lot of light colored cliffs in bright sunlight, it looks kinda like the openening of the game. It doenst feel as smooth anymore, kinda how a felt when I started playing it. I wonder if it is because the framerate drops below some magic number, or if the bright background, or if the scale has something to do with it.

 

[ZebMacahan]

This is heavily highlighted by reviewers, it had been in RTings' oled reviews for years when I bought mine a couple years back (hopefully they haven't removed the info.) The thing is that this judder is a feature of the panel, it's the same property that makes the response times so great. Kinda strange the software doesn't have an "interoplation" mode which fades from the last frame at closer to lcd speeds I suppose.

I´m glad they are mentioning it, I wish more reviewers did that.

 

[ZebMacahan]

I looked at some 40 fps gameplay on youtube, ratchet, miles morales and horizon. For those games 40 doesnt cut it, but for a plague tale it works great and is a big step up from 30 fps on OLED.

 

[Seanspeed]

So I'm curious as I've never had an OLED TV(though I did have a plasma back in the day) - people talk about how 30fps is unplayable on them due to the super fast pixel response times, but why wouldn't 40fps or 60fps be affected by this same issue? Obviously the problem will be lessened, but surely the problem should still manifest to some degree, to where playing at 40fps or 60fps still looks worse than on an LCD in a direct comparison?

Is there some convergence where the response times overtake the raw frame deficiencies in terms of the smoothness factor? And why would it would be between 30fps and 60fps specifically?

 

[Cynicalking]

I looked at some 40 fps gameplay on youtube, ratchet, miles morales and horizon. For those games 40 doesnt cut it, but for a plague tale it works great and is a big step up from 30 fps on OLED.

OLED is definitely not for you. I played through al those games (minus Spider-man, patch came when I was already done with it) in 40fps mode and all where a noticeable step up from the 30fps mode.

 

[Nesh]

I looked at some 40 fps gameplay on youtube, ratchet, miles morales and horizon. For those games 40 doesnt cut it, but for a plague tale it works great and is a big step up from 30 fps on OLED.

doesnt cut it in terms of what?

 

[ZebMacahan]

So I'm curious as I've never had an OLED TV(though I did have a plasma back in the day) - people talk about how 30fps is unplayable on them due to the super fast pixel response times, but why wouldn't 40fps or 60fps be affected by this same issue? Obviously the problem will be lessened, but surely the problem should still manifest to some degree, to where playing at 40fps or 60fps still looks worse than on an LCD in a direct comparison?

Is there some convergence where the response times overtake the raw frame deficiencies in terms of the smoothness factor? And why would it would be between 30fps and 60fps specifically?

Some people say that 60 fps feels a bit smoother on a LCD than an OLED. Thats not something which have bothered me, but I wouldnt be surprised if I could spot it in a side by side comparison. I guess the more frames per second the less of an issue it becomes, so even if theres a difference its still enough frames for it to not be a problem.

 

[ZebMacahan]

doesnt cut it in terms of what?

Because those are more fast paced games with lots of fast camera movements so I experienced that 40 frames wasnt enough to make them feel smooth enough. I cant say if I noticed OLED judder, or if Im just used to 60 fps in those games. My guess it was judder because it kinda felt and looked the same.

 

[ZebMacahan]

OLED is definitely not for you. I played through al those games (minus Spider-man, patch came when I was already done with it) in 40fps mode and all where a noticeable step up from the 30fps mode.

Yeah, I know. The image quality on OLED is great, not sure if I would have went with an LCD instead. Yeah, 40 is a noticable step up.

I´m curios about higher end LCDs, how close are they to OLED in terms of image quality? And since they have faster pixel response time than cheaper LCDs, how much of an issue is judder on those TVs?