I dont think it would bother me much either, I'm just surprised people talk about this issue with OLED as though it only exists at 30fps. I'd think this would be considered something of a notable knock on OLED in general for gaming, at least among the enthusiast crowd.
40 fps, how difficult is it to implement?
- Thread starter ZebMacahan
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davis.anthony
Veteran
So my take is OLED only makes sense for PC gamers who can push high enough frame rates to an OLED panel in all games to overcome the juddering problems.
That 1440p LG OLED monitor is looking even more tempting now.
That 1440p LG OLED monitor is looking even more tempting now.
What we're dealing with here is finding the limits of human visual perception. One of the reasons 30FPS on a typical LCD seems "fine" is because the liquid crystals in the display require a finite time to reposition themselves in order to physically raster the requested image. This time is called latency, but the visible representation of that latency is actually a form of blurring; a cross-fade between each displayed image frame. In effect, an LCD will tend to slightly motion-blur the rapid sequence of frames, giving a sense of smoothness between the discrete images.
OLED, on the contrary, has astoundingly low latency; the organic light emmitting diodes activate near-instantly when charged, so in effect there is no human-perceptible blur between each frame. And just like looking at a desk fan, at lower speeds your eyes can make out the individual frames just like being able to discern the individual blades of a fan. At higher speeds, the frames finally start to blend together, just like the fan appears to become a smooth circular shape.
Why is there such a stark difference between 30 and 60 FPS? Because you're working to find the limits of a particular human's visual perception. The center of the human visual field is all about detail and not necessarily about visual change rate; peripheral vision is much more about fast motion and not so much detail. Beyond your organic eye's ability to perceive a faster refresh rate, a faster FPS game can still be perceived as even smoother. Ths is because input lag is tied to framerate, no small part of the "fluid" feel of a high framerate game is how connected the input feels.
edit: I left out a word at the very end! input lag is TIED to framerate...
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On console couple things to keep in mind
XS does not expose if display supports VRR to title. So titles can't be made to explicitly take advantage of it. Although unlock framerate would be good start regardless.
XS does have good system level support with decent LFC.
Flight sim having to hack it with their own heuristics says a lot.
PS5 LFC not as good as XS but more display details and control is exposed to the title.
So at the moment Sony 1P is making good use of 40fps modes.
Maybe if xbox exposes more via their api's we will get more games making better use of it in multiplats.
XS does not expose if display supports VRR to title. So titles can't be made to explicitly take advantage of it. Although unlock framerate would be good start regardless.
XS does have good system level support with decent LFC.
Flight sim having to hack it with their own heuristics says a lot.
PS5 LFC not as good as XS but more display details and control is exposed to the title.
So at the moment Sony 1P is making good use of 40fps modes.
Maybe if xbox exposes more via their api's we will get more games making better use of it in multiplats.
I get the whole gist of it, I'm just curious what specifically changes between 30fps and 60fps that this suddenly wouldn't be a problem, or whether the problem is just 'alleviated enough' that you're happy when it's not as bad, even if it might still technically be worse at 60fps than on an LCD or something. Especially when we're talking TV's where people generally sit farther away from them(as framerate/motion clarity sensitivity does lower with distance/FoV). I'd be curious what this might mean for OLED monitors where people sit much closer to them generally.
They call it image retention not "latency" ( even "rise time" is more apt than latency but as backlight blinking demonstrates "rise time" or "response time" can be unimportant in grand scheme). Image retention produces an image where both frames are displayed simultaneously, and in effect this means it can be hard to distinguish one frame to next, not suprising with moving gaze. 60fps doesn't make it much less of a problem it gives 300 lines equivalent "motion resolution" which was plasma selling point vs. LCD and not OLED's because latter also has image retention by default but plasma had >1000 lines at 60hz by default . Supposedly wearables won't have retention by default because they want to use it to overlay the real world ( no retention ofc.).
This is why MPRT (motion picture response time) was adopted as a measure vs RT (response time).
This is why MPRT (motion picture response time) was adopted as a measure vs RT (response time).
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ZebMacahan
Regular
My guess is that it has to do with human perception, like others have written. At 60 fps theres probably enough frames for our eyes/brains no to experience any judder. At 30 it becomes like a slide show where theres no interpolation between each frame.
I totaly agree that this is a noticable knock on OLED in general for gaming. I checked out some "best gaming TVs" articles on different sites some days ago, OLEDs are getting first place everywhere, and not a word on motion judder. This is very perplexing to me. Fast pixel respons time are always considered as something good in these articles, but it seems to me neither too fast or too slow is good. Had I known about this issue I would probably have gotten an LCD, and its really weird that this isnt mentioned more.
yeah I got my OLED due to its great reviews for console gaming. Not a single mention of judder
For those of your sensitive to this buying tvs in the future, RTings rates it -- they call this particular phenomenon "stutter" https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/cx-oled. They also have a section called "judder" which seems to be about 3:2 pulldown type issues.
ZebMacahan
Regular
Everyone praises it for 120 hz, but very few games run in 120 fps. Sure, its good for the 40 fps mode some game have. But one would think that 30 fps being unplayable is a bigger issue.
How are you dealing with it? Are you avoiding all 30 fps games?
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
Aren't people overblowing this issue? I got a 2019 C9 and never noticed any stutter at 30 or 60fps in games. At least I never felt if was particularly different from my previous LCD TV. Maybe its different if you have both TV types side by side but I don't think a significant number of people would really notice anything if they'd only play on an OLED.
The only stutter I notice is in 24fps content with wide panning shots at a certain speed that matches the refresh rate and does cause very obvious "jumps" in the picture.
The only stutter I notice is in 24fps content with wide panning shots at a certain speed that matches the refresh rate and does cause very obvious "jumps" in the picture.
davis.anthony
Veteran
And this is why in the grand scheme of things it's a none issue as most people don't' see it.
ZebMacahan
Regular
Im not sure. Maybe more people pushing for 60 fps is because 30 looks like crap on their OLEDs, and that they arent aware of that its an OLED issue. They might just think they´re used to 60 fps now.
I know me, my gf and my friend cant stand the judder. His friend doesnt seem to mind it. Very small sample size, I know. It would be interessting to know what percentage of people experience the judder.
davis.anthony
Veteran
It's not an OLED issue at all, 30fps looks like crap compared to 60fps on ANY display type and owners of all display types are pushing for 60fps to become standard, not just those that own an OLED.
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ZebMacahan
Regular
The issue is much worse on OLED. This is due to the sample and hold (is that what its called?) type display, combined with super fast pixel response time of OLED which is the culprit. This is a well known issue.
I understand that some people dont like 30 fps either way, but 30 fps on other TVs doesnt make my head hurt.
davis.anthony
Veteran
Where's the proof of this? How amny OLED owners are un happy with it?
It's not a well know issue at all, a known issue yes, but not a well known one.
And 30fps might make someone bodies else's head hurt on other display types.
Just because yourself and a few others in this thread have an issue doesn't make it an issue for everyone nor does it make it as big as an issue in the wider world as you're portraying it to be.
ZebMacahan
Regular
Considering me and my friend got nauseouss and got headaches when playing 30 fps on our OLEDs, and we had never had any issues with 30 fps games in decades of gaming. Neither of us had heard of OLED judder before, so it wasn´t a placebo.
So it is a known issue, but theres no evidence for it? Seems like both those statements can´t be true.
Have you ever heard of someone getting headaches of 30 fps on LEDs but not on OLEDs? The internet is full of testimonials of the opposite. The mechanism which causes this is known as well.
I have never said I know how many people experience this, or how big of a problem it is.
I think your post comes across a bit argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative, and I dont understand why. This is a issue with OLEDs, and we know what causes it. We dont know what percentage of people experience this. Great for those people who dont notice it. For those of us who notice it is a big deal, and we wished we had known about it before buying our TVs.
davis.anthony
Veteran
I never said it was placebo or that you were making it up.
I never said that, try reading what I said again.
Irrelevant.
I suggest you stop trying to portray your personal experiences with OLED stutter as being common for all OLED owners.
I have never denied your issues with OLED stutter, only with how you're trying to portray it as being this 'well known' thing when it isn't.
For myself and many others this is the first we've heard about it, strange don't you think for something 'well known'
If it's that much of an issue then change your TV.
ZebMacahan
Regular
You´re coming of as very rude and argumenative just for the sake of it. I have no interrest in spending any more time discussing this with you.
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