Question for developers... PS3 and framerate

[Phil]

Yes and gears would have likely been surpassed graphically by a number of titles if they had made that mistake. Perhaps it would not even have been viewed as favorably in comparison to already released titles.

Not if a 60fps rule would be enforced and all developers would target that framerate. That there are developers that target 30fps in order to sell their game on the premise of better graphics and nice screenshots put all developers into a position in which they are more likely to target a lower framerate as well.

Sadly your logic and arguments is exactly what is causing developers to go for better graphics at the expense of framerate.

 

[Mintmaster]

Not if a 60fps rule would be enforced and all developers would target that framerate. That there are developers that target 30fps in order to sell their game on the premise of better graphics and nice screenshots put all developers into a position in which they are more likely to target a lower framerate as well.

What idiot company would enforce such a rule? It would make games on a competing platform look better. Not everyone needs or even wants 60fps.

Like I said, 30fps looks more cinematic. 60fps will always look like a video game or a camcorder, because that's the only place we see it. The only reason I aim for averages of 60fps with settings for fast PC games is so that 99% of the time the framerate is above 30fps.

Sadly your logic and arguments is exactly what is causing developers to go for better graphics at the expense of framerate.

Stop being an elitist prick. There's nothing "sad" about it. The general gaming audience has no problem with 30fps, so if you do, then vote with your wallet. Gears looks fantastic, and many of us wouldn't want it any other way. Take out the wow factor in the graphics and it's just another shooter to me with a few semi-unique aspects, unable to stand out from the crowd.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Sadly your logic and arguments is exactly what is causing developers to go for better graphics at the expense of framerate.

I guess you should just stick to buying 3-5 year old pc games if thats what you really want.

 

[AlNom]

What idiot company would enforce such a rule? It would make games on a competing platform look better. Not everyone needs or even wants 60fps.

*cough* id Software *cough*



Phil & Mintmaster -> Watch the tone please.

 

[Mintmaster]

*cough* id Software *cough*

???

How does ID choose fps over graphics? On the PC it's pretty much up to the user, and AFAIK several ID console games don't run particularly smoothly.

Phil & Mintmaster -> Watch the tone please.

Sorry, but he's basically denigrating people for choosing graphics over framerate. It's simply a choice, and devs will cater to the desires of whichever side they feel is best for them (financially or otherwise).

 

[phat]

Like I said, 30fps looks more cinematic. 60fps will always look like a video game or a camcorder, because that's the only place we see it.

I think the reason that video looks like video is not the 60fps, but the poor dynamic range and non-film colour tones. Apocalypto, for example, was shot on HD digital video, and looks like video despite being 24fps.

 

[AlNom]

???

How does ID choose fps over graphics? On the PC it's pretty much up to the user, and AFAIK several ID console games don't run particularly smoothly.

Sorry, I meant to poke at their 60Hz mentality that they talked about with id Tech 4 and 5. I know it doesn't mean the end title won't necessarily run at 60fps, but it seems to be a target of theirs now. I would like to note that id Software didn't handle their console ports in the past, but now they are with id Tech 5.


http://www.gamespot.com/news/6175061.html

GameSpot: What are these developers, who are all presumably familiar with Unreal Engine 3, most impressed by when they see your engine?

Steve Nix: I'm not that aware of what our competitors are doing and what they're promising with their road map, but when people walk into our booth, they see that we have four platforms running at 60Hz with the exact same assets.

 

[Acert93]

If they game would have launched with 60fps from the beginning, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, as no one would know "how much better it would look at 30fps" and instead, everyone would be enjoying the better gameplay by having a more accurate and responsive game.

Graphics are all nice and cool when a game comes out - but it's the gameplay that gets stuck in your memories as graphics get surpassed by newer software.

I am curious how 30fps affected GeoW gameplay negatively. It is a tactical shooter relying strongly on cover. This is a HUGE departure from, say, a sim racer. I don't buy the arguement that more framerate, at the expense of visuals, is a win. Just like resolution isn't always a win (but can be, like in an RTS).

It is very design dependant, so I am curious how GeoW gameplay was harmed at 30fps.

*cough* id Software *cough*

id has specifically noted they are aiming for 60fps; but John Carmack also noted that a company was more than free to use id Tech 5 to aim at 30fps and he would expect nearly a 3x increase in visual quality as, in his words, 60Hz requires a bit of overshooting to maintain a consistant 60fps.

It is worth noting that Rage is partly a racing game as well.

 

[Phil]

I am curious how 30fps affected GeoW gameplay negatively. It is a tactical shooter relying strongly on cover. This is a HUGE departure from, say, a sim racer. I don't buy the arguement that more framerate, at the expense of visuals, is a win. Just like resolution isn't always a win (but can be, like in an RTS).

It is very design dependant, so I am curious how GeoW gameplay was harmed at 30fps.

As I have stated in the other topic (or maybe it was this one, I'm either getting old or losing track), I admittedly haven't played much of GeoW, so perhaps I was generalizing a bit. I have no doubt however that GeoW would be better if it was at 60 fps. And I honestly doubt the visual downgrade such a framerate increase would have resulted in (if it would have been a design-choice from the beginning), would be really that noticable. In other words, I strongly believe the benefits would outweigh the drawbacks.

Why? GeoW, like many other games in that genre, is a 3rd person game and thus also has quite a bit of fast camera movement (I'd argue more so than a sim racer). Then the biggest gripe I'd have with it, would be the aiming. A higher framerate makes the whole aiming a lot more responsive. As an example: Go play Metal Gear Solid 2 on the PS2 and then compare it to MGS3. Both are 3rd person games and both can go into 1st person (or close to) view to aim and shoot. In MGS2->MGS3 you can really make out a huge difference. I suspect GeoW will not be better in this regard, mostly because of the framerate.


Anyway, all this talk is slowly getting redundant, really. Obviously anyone has their preferences and anyone can chose to draw the line where they prefer to. Maybe I'd have less of a problem if at the beginning of a generation, more effort was thrown into framerate and putting gameplay before graphics. If GeoW was a 5th generation title already on a well established platform with little more to tap without enhancing the visuals - yes, perhaps I could live with the occasional 30 fps title here and there. For a 2nd generation game though like GeoW and others are (including on PS3), I just can't help but feel disappointed.

 

[Obakan]

About fps on consoles I have only seen a few that can hold 30fps.
Is there some kind of program to the consoles that can show you the real fps, like there´s FRAPS on PC? I seen many say that for example LAIR runs 30+ the whole time, when it doesn´t.
When developers say that a game is going to run in 60fps do they mean peak fps?

 

[Neb]

About fps on consoles I have only seen a few that can hold 30fps.
Is there some kind of program to the consoles that can show you the real fps, like there´s FRAPS on PC? I seen many say that for example LAIR runs 30+ the whole time, when it doesn´t.
When developers say that a game is going to run in 60fps do they mean peak fps?

There are several console games where the devs state it is a 60fps game but the fps will go down to 30 or less many times especially during combat or the like during the game. And i thought Lair was capped at 30fps and in many places it runs significantly lower, especially on ground fights.

 

[Obakan]

There are several console games where the devs state it is a 60fps game but the fps will go down to 30 or less many times especially during combat or the like during the game. And i thought Lair was capped at 30fps and in many places it runs significantly lower, especially on ground fights.

One can say that they more or less are lying about the fps and the resolution, it´s sad.

 

[Neb]

One can say that they more or less are lying about the fps and the resolution, it´s sad.

Same goes with resolution for the games, a 720p/1080p game not being true 720p/1080p resolution yet those devs still claim this res for their games.

 

[patsu]

There are several console games where the devs state it is a 60fps game but the fps will go down to 30 or less many times especially during combat or the like during the game. And i thought Lair was capped at 30fps and in many places it runs significantly lower, especially on ground fights.

During ground battle, Lair sometimes goes into slo-mo to show the dragon munching soldiers. I have only seen 1 case where the battlefield chugged significantly (and it was indeed on the ground).

Most of the areas look ok to me although I may be less sensitive to framerate than most here. The bigger problem is Lair's fickled camera that swing very quickly from target to target without much warning.

That said, given that framerate is one of the last things developers optimize for, I wouldn't be surprised when games don't run at their advertised framerate sometimes. Not sure about resolution (Is it common to change resolution last minute ?). In PS3 context, someone mentioned that XMB settings may also affect framerate slightly. So it's not necessary a developer only issue.

 

[Brimstone]

Another sports game developer, Konami, experiencing a frame rate challenge with the PS3 version of their game title.

IGN: In the PS3 version we've played we noticed some slow-down in the game, plus the crowd and stadiums aren't as polished as some of the on-pitch features. Will you look to rectify this in the next game?

Seabass: Of course. To be honest I don't think the slow-down is that bad compared to the 360 and as I said, we don't create just a PS3 game, we created both together. But when we compared them directly we were shocked because the PS3 has a little bit more slowdown and we don't really know why.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/827/827315p1.html

 

[ERP]

I've never written a sports game, but I know a lot of people who have and sports games are somewhat unique, in so far as the crowd is surprisingly expensive to draw, and exhibits a lot of overdraw that probably can't be easilly saved.
I'd speculate that the EDRAM in 360 is a real win in these scenarios.

 

[phat]

Crowds have a lot of opaque overdraw, so early z-reject and front-to-back drawing seems like an obvious and powerful optimization that should largely (almost completely) negate the bandwidth advantage of eDRAM. Or am I missing something?

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Well, with the number of elements in a crowd (particularly in sports titles set in arena-type venues, the cost of *very effective* Z-sorting is probably on the high side. Though as you say, I would expect a Z-Prepass to be pretty effective, especially since the initial pass, assuming you're not going to use any color/alpha information can be really simple and fast so long as you've got the geometry processing power to spare.

I'm probably oversimplifying, but I'm in a little too much of a rush to care right now.

 

[DJ12]

I read something today about people getting rid of some of the slowdown in PS3 games by disabling some features in the system settings.

I don't have any games that really suffer from slowdown so cannot check it myself.

They seem to think some of the stuff in the firmware runs on the PPE not the reserved SPU.

http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/10/14/a-quick-fix-for-improving-your-framerates/

 

[phat]

Sorting a crowd of 30,000 at the object level shouldn't be too slow, and you can exploit inter-frame coherence using incrementally fast sorts.

But then arena crowds don't even need a general sort, since they are more-or-less points on planes and can be drawn front-to-back using simple sweeps.