Grr…. stop it ! I'm waiting _very_ patiently for a 30" 3D monitor. I don't have space in the office to hold a full-sized 3DTV. There are already 5 screens and one HDTV in my room. >_<
[PS3] Killzone 3 game discussion
- Thread starter ShadowRunner
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Grr…. stop it ! I'm waiting _very_ patiently for a 30" 3D monitor. I don't have space in the office to hold a full-sized 3DTV. There are already 5 screens and one HDTV in my room. >_<
Too busy to put my thoughts down in more details. I'll give a short answer now. 2 things KZ2 does better:
(1) Less is more (focus)
(2) Absolute control of art vision over the other aspects to deliver a movie-like experience. This includes sacrificing gameplay, choosing/emphasizing the right tech for the job, and resist the temptation to showoff tech/effects. KZ3 is too showy and I think it hurt the art a little (More later).
I am at the jungle stage and I havent met any of that sacrifice yet. Am I going to find it later?
I like variety which people complained about its lack in K2. I think its "showy" aspect was "sewed" so that it also refines its art and atmosphere to the better. I dont see stuff being thrown just for the sakes of having it there
Was referring to KZ2, not KZ3 ! ^_^
The "heavy" controls would be an example. Even though it's not an art thing per se, but it works hand in hand with the presentation and atmosphere.
The smoke swirl in KZ3 in some scenes is more obvious but appears a tad more mechanical. The swirl in KZ2 is much more subtle. It's not too frequent, but you see it once in a while. The smoke effects in KZ2 also last longer and fade slowly. Even the lens flare effect is faint. I didn't see it at first until nAo and Shifty pointed out the color dispersion. In general, I find the application of effects more subtle and organic.
KZ3 is more "lively" and magnificent (Point at MAWLR). Space scene is very clean. Jungle scene is colorful (but you should see the junkyard scene ! ^_^).
It reminds me of show business. For its lack of variety, KZ2 went deep (Look at the death animations in the Ballet of Death). I'm impressed by KZ2 and KZ3 achievements, but I love KZ2 more for its craftsmanship.
If the control lag in killzone 2 was an artistic choice, an intentional compromise for certain tech, or an intentional choice for any reason, then it was a horrible horrible decision. If you make a game, the first thing you should do is make the controls work and make it enjoyable to play. The fact that they patched it later ,and everyone said the patch made the controls better, pretty much confirms that. I haven't played Killzone 3, but if the controls are smoother and more responsive, then they've already made the game twofold better, in my opinion.
Disagree. I think the whole "heavy" argument was a really poor way to try to rationalize a terrible problem they had with their controls. It was a problem, and they fixed it. I don't think it did anything to benefit the presentation or atmosphere; The controls made the game worse, plain and simple.
Everyone loves the controls in Killzone 3, from what I'm reading, especially the super-responsive Move controls. This time around, they put their priorities in the right place, and made it work. There were a few shooters on the Wii that I really enjoyed, just because of the control mechanics. I'm glad that PS3 users are getting the chance to experience that now.
Well, it ties in with the animation and gun feel. Your action triggers a whole slew of "organic" animation. Best way to see this is to go to the warehouse scene under the god rays. You'll see your own shadow on the floor, and then jump. You'll see the entire squat and heave animation done nicely.
On the enemy side, their animation is tightly coupled with the AI system. Also "richly" animated.
The first time I played KZ2 MP in Salamun Market, it felt surreal. Like I'm in a dreamy battlefield. The gun and even bullets seem to deliver a sense of weight. Aiming requires a fine touch though. Still, it was a special experience… until the rocket launcher showed up when people leveled up enough.
On the enemy side, their animation is tightly coupled with the AI system. Also "richly" animated.
The first time I played KZ2 MP in Salamun Market, it felt surreal. Like I'm in a dreamy battlefield. The gun and even bullets seem to deliver a sense of weight. Aiming requires a fine touch though. Still, it was a special experience… until the rocket launcher showed up when people leveled up enough.
… which is why I said KZ3 is a better game while KZ2 is a better art piece. I think some people can't get used to the narrow field of vision and extra effects too.
That said, playing in the original KZ2 MP is a very special experience if you can stomach it. I'm glad they did it !
agree to disagree, I guess. To me, everything about the gunplay was unresponsive and terrible. There was absolutely nothing good about the controls. There was a big enough backlash about the controls that they had to issue a patch, and it was widely acknowledged as an improvement. It has nothing to do with AI, god rays, shadows or anything else. It was simply unresponsive.
The KZ2 control patch didn't fix the aim issue completely. Not sure if they can if it's integrated into existing code tightly. KZ3 has a different implementation.
The controls does not affect AI, lighting and shadows directly; but it is part of the elaborate KZ2 world. They are balanced against your own animation and the elaborate and slower AI movement (KZ3 AI moves faster now).
I stopped playing long before the patch was available, so I never experienced it myself, but going by the response on this forum, the patch was some improvement.
Come on, Patsu, you're allowed to say the controls suck. You're either a masochist, or just an incredible apologist with a knack for spinning negatives into something positive. Part of the elaborate KZ2 world? If they had to make the AI move and react slower because of the bad controls, then it really was bad.
Anyway, I'm glad, by all accounts, the controls in Killzone 3 are very much an improvement, especially for the ladies and gents with Move.
Some improvement but it's still tied to KZ2-ness. It's an integral part of the experience. Don't expect KZ2 to control like KZ3 after the patch. ^_^
Try it yourself.
Hm… I like Demon's Souls and MAG too. So what do I know… ;-)
You do realize that as much as I'm allowed to say the controls suck, it is also perfectly fine to say the controls suit what they're trying to achieve. If it's KZ3 controls against KZ2's slower AI, then it'll probably be boring.
I did a round trip. From engineering to ops to marketing to sales, and back to engineering+. Of these roles, I respect the sales people most (I started out hating sales people the most !). ^_^
I think you only need to take a step back instead of looking at everything from solely your own perspective. I'm just pointing out that KZ2 has its design goals and it met them admirably. Whether those design goals meet consumer taste, well…. we know GG went the other way for KZ3.
Similarly, your comment about Move or Wiimote+ precision control… I can tell you that while they work well for the intended goals, personally I still prefer DS3 most of the time. Nothing wrong with the Move/Wiimote people though.
I think you only need to take a step back instead of looking at everything from solely your own perspective. I'm just pointing out that KZ2 has its design goals and it met them admirably. Whether those design goals meet consumer taste, well…. we know GG went the other way for KZ3.
Similarly, your comment about Move or Wiimote+ precision control… I can tell you that while they work well for the intended goals, personally I still prefer DS3 most of the time. Nothing wrong with the Move/Wiimote people though.
Nah I think you are looking too much into it. Especially when people where actually complaining about KZ2's lack of variety and color. Personally I think there's more craftsmanship in 3 if you ask me. Its colorful yet it retains its sinister and dark atmosphere at the same time. Instead of going with a simpler art direction or retaining the old same to get away with it they did the opposite.
Its a wonderful demonstration of the technology and art and I feel that they have been put into good use because it has impact on the way you approach the gameplay. The Helghast world feels more alive and less like a lego structure.
If they went with another K2 route, I think that most of us would have asked for more evolution in 3. We always ask for more from a sequel and the developers did just that. K3 is what Gears 2 was for 1 in terms of variety and color (Gears 1 was less colorful and stages werent much different from each other). Only that K3 does it much better in terms of atmosphere and variety as a sequel.
It keeps me on my seat just like Uncharted 2 and GoW3, eager to see what the next stage will be. Whereas in K2 I often caught myself losing interest from area to area since they were too similar and didnt help in changing gameplay much. Almost every stage felt like it played similarly saved by the impressive AI
Only thing I know about sales, is that it takes very special people to be good at it. You can not teach real sales, I never saw the value of sales until they moved me to a pre-sales role, man the hardcore sales people are unique. Engineering is easy in comparison, you just need to know your details and how they fit into the big picture
It's all about personal preferences anyway. Otherwise, all of us will like the same food, same woman, same shirt, blah. It'd be a mess.
KZ3 ? I can tell a lot of
went into MAWLR. Freaking amazing fight. I wonder if the KZ3 team hate all mecha after that since they obviously spent so much time there.I like that the jungle has eye-popping colors. The stealth gameplay is a good start, but I think if they have less variety, they can invest more in this setting and gameplay style. But we only got one level off it. I like the junkyard better than the jungle, especially the tower fight.
The snow scene is great too, but not as impactful as I thought. Should let me ride on the water.
There are lot of details in the game, so the artists must have spent a lot of time there. But I think they overdid it. Some people are complaining that the MP maps are too cluttered. Your milage will vary.
EDIT: Yeah… junkyard love:
The environmentalists will probably scoff when I say I prefer the junkyard to the jungle. ^_^
Only thing I know about sales, is that it takes very special people to be good at it. You can not teach real sales, I never saw the value of sales until they moved me to a pre-sales role, man the hardcore sales people are unique. Engineering is easy in comparison, you just need to know your details and how they fit into the big picture
Yes, good sales people are like the commandos of corporate America. And yes, it's personality, discipline, talent/charisma, personal network and skills altogether.
But dude, you're downplaying tech people on a tech forum.
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