[PS3] Killzone 3 game discussion

[patsu]

You still need good level design and KZ3, while excellent, still does not match the level of teamwork in Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory.

I hope they continue to tweak the levels. Some of them are only open in certain mode today. I think for now, they need to solve the MTU problem post-haste. If I read their note correctly, it's causing disconnections and collision detection issues for some people. That means some teams will be unbalanced, which is the #1 issue in KZ2 IMHO.

EDIT: I also hope they can carry all the old maps over.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Well, I just played my first online match. I'm not sure what the name of the map was, but apparently, the mode we were playing was "Whoever has a jetpack kills everyone in three bullets." It was kind of pathetic how easily this one guy with a jetpack killed all of us. I will assume that I'm just not very good for now, but it sure seemed like the machine gun was somewhat overpowered.

Since my team had no tactical spawn points, I decided to be your friendly neighborhood tactician. Of course, little did I realize that GG decided to make it as confusing as possible to find the damn spawn point. I went around and around this tower, looking for some stairs or a ladder. I found a ramp that seemed to lead up, but it just led around and terminated. Then I found a door in the base of the tower, but couldn't find any stairs or ladders. The technique of hiding the spawn points sure was interesting. Sure wish I knew where the jetpack was, because getting mowed down in trenches by guys who can fly isn't very fun.

I didn't realize they gave Marksmen assault rifles. What ridiculously unbalanced class. Really, who thought it was a good idea to have a class that's invisible and doesn't show up on radar when fully leveled? The KZ2 Marksman was perfect, as he couldn't move if he wanted to stay hidden. I very much dislike this new version. In fact, I think I dislike the way they try to make the class structure a weird hybrid of MAG and Call of Duty. They basically took the most annoying part of KZ2's system (unlocking the perks) and based everything around it.

Obviously, some of those problems will be ameliorated by learning the maps via bot matches, or maybe just running around them alone. But I've played a lot of FPSes, and this was easily the most confused I've been on Day 1 in a long time.

Short version: First impressions are not good, but could improve.

 

[patsu]

Well, I just played my first online match. I'm not sure what the name of the map was, but apparently, the mode we were playing was "Whoever has a jetpack kills everyone in three bullets." It was kind of pathetic how easily this one guy with a jetpack killed all of us. I will assume that I'm just not very good for now, but it sure seemed like the machine gun was somewhat overpowered.

Jetpack can be retrieved in the spawn point (along one of the walls). I think its machine gun is not as powerful as the LMG, but it can be difficult to track a good pilot. I think they are most vulnerable to rocket turret. Build one to fend off self-reviving medics, infiltrators, lower level marksman, and jetpack dudes off. I must say it is rather effective (at least against me). The Tactician's airbot is also useful in pinpointing enemy location in general.

I toyed with Jetpack but it's quite clumsy (Need practices).

Since my team had no tactical spawn points, I decided to be your friendly neighborhood tactician. Of course, little did I realize that GG decided to make it as confusing as possible to find the damn spawn point. I went around and around this tower, looking for some stairs or a ladder. I found a ramp that seemed to lead up, but it just led around and terminated. Then I found a door in the base of the tower, but couldn't find any stairs or ladders. The technique of hiding the spawn points sure was interesting. Sure wish I knew where the jetpack was, because getting mowed down in trenches by guys who can fly isn't very fun.

Are you playing Guerilla Warfare or Operation ? Can you explore the same maps in botzone ? I feel that map knowledge in KZ* is critical because they are complex, with some obscure walkways.

I didn't realize they gave Marksmen assault rifles. What ridiculously unbalanced class. Really, who thought it was a good idea to have a class that's invisible and doesn't show up on radar when fully leveled? The KZ2 Marksman was perfect, as he couldn't move if he wanted to stay hidden. I very much dislike this new version. In fact, I think I dislike the way they try to make the class structure a weird hybrid of MAG and Call of Duty. They basically took the most annoying part of KZ2's system (unlocking the perks) and based everything around it.

Yeap, now every advanced class is over-powered, especially Marksman.
The lower level marksman's are manageable if I'm careful. I can see them ripple when they move and fire a weapon. These days I shoot at obscure corners to check for hidden enemies. When you see one, it's possible that there are 2-5 others around him. Keep your weapons up and move fast even after you have killed him. This is because an advanced Marksman can hide his comrades. Best way is to wait for teammates to show up and flank them in a spread out group.

They are not a big problem so far, but the potential for f*ck up is there.

As a Tactician, I think you'll need to get the rocket launcher to even out the odds, together with your supporting teammates.

I also move further away from my teammates in KZ3 than in other games. That way, I won't be killed with him together.

Obviously, some of those problems will be ameliorated by learning the maps via bot matches, or maybe just running around them alone. But I've played a lot of FPSes, and this was easily the most confused I've been on Day 1 in a long time.

Short version: First impressions are not good, but could improve.

I expected sh*t on my first day, but the people have been kind to me so far. All of my games have been quite pleasant.

 

[corduroygt]

I agree that the marksman is a bit too much. I have the sniper rifle, assault rifle, full invisibility and stealth altogether, and that's a formula for beasting many games. Sometimes I find a silenced AR from a dead body and then it's just ridiculous. I still get more satisfaction when playing with a competent team where I choose a medic and they won't leave me by myself so I can heal them too.

 

[patsu]

I just received the AR for my Marksman. Planning to get the sniper rifle next so that I can take out the WASP guy if necessary. After that I will go for the rocket launcher for the Infiltrator. Already have 50% boost to sprint speed.

EDIT:

I agree that the marksman is a bit too much. I have the sniper rifle, assault rifle, full invisibility and stealth altogether, and that's a formula for beasting many games. Sometimes I find a silenced AR from a dead body and then it's just ridiculous. I still get more satisfaction when playing with a competent team where I choose a medic and they won't leave me by myself so I can heal them too.

Advanced medic can auto-heal the teammates around him, revive and resupply downed soldiers, so he's pretty useful when defending a position.

 

[specwarGP2]

WTF? Don't tell me you can do this?! That's like the worst possible way to break a game completely. The 2nd-life perks in Call of Duty were already bad enough, as when you shoot someone, they should be dead. I can live with a medic class that can revive people at some distance and risk (though I think it's pretty useless and more of an annoyance to both the killed player and the person who did the kill and deserves it) - but being able to revive yourself? I'm disgusted.

Its not as bad as you think. If you down someone in COD MW, they can possibly kill you almost immediately after they hit the ground with last stand or that perk where they drop a grenade. A KZ3 medic has to bleed out for a little while before he self revives and during that time he cant do anything. So you can shoot him again or melee him to kill him for good. Plus if you're smart you can get 2 kills from a medic when you wait for him to self revive.

 

[fearsomepirate]

In the match I played, the guys using the jetpack were clearly not bad at it. A frontal assault was suicide. It didn't matter if I saw him first and opened fire first (low level, so all I have is an SMG), because the machine gun on in it would kill me almost instantly. I also liked how KZ2 would start you off with other novices and ease you into playing with more experienced people. But that was yet another thing the COD crowd complained about.

Overall, I feel like this game was designed by the "LOL! I am teh 1337 sn1p3r, n00b!" crowd. I mean, it feels like they designed the most powerful sniper imaginable, then just sort of threw some other classes in there. The fact that the Marksman's Scramble++ ability passively disables one of the Tactician's secondary abilities suggests that. A passive ability should never trump an active ability, ever. Imagine if the Engineer passively disabled any cloaks and disguises near him. Oh yeah, the maze-like map I was in (I was playing Warzone) is not available in Botzone. Awesome!

I should also mention that I really hate how they removed all the options from Warzone to make it even more COD-like. To me, one of the best things about KZ2 was that they remembered that custom games are fun. Think the Assault class is overpowered? Turn it off. Think Assassination is weak? Turn it off. Can't stand Pyrrhus Rise? Take it out of the rotation. And no one will make you join a game with options you don't like. Choose from a list instead of getting randomly assigned! But no, I'm not allowed to customize my own game. Apparently, Timesplitters was the end of an era in console multiplayer, because in the bright new hardcore ueber-advanced HD future, everything is freaking Call of Duty.

I just don't see why I should play this instead of MAG.

 

[Arwin]

I've seen some very effective use of the jetpack in the beta too. Really good stuff, like hiding on a roof, jumping down, attack while jumping up and down and then disappearing back on the roof again (also was a roof that wasn't as clearly a roof, just the top of a structure).

Probably not used that much yet, but you can also boost with the Jetpack and knock down and hurt players that way. Pretty cool.

I do think that if you have a Move controller, you have a decent advantage against the Jetpack versus a regular DS3 player, as it is much, much easier to track a player that moves up/down/left/right quickly and erratically. I had a pretty easy time with that in the single player campaign thanks to the Move.

It'll be a while before I get round to multi-player, but I have a week off next week so who knows.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I think it's way too much of an advantage. The tactical advantage of being able to hide anywhere ought to be compensated by a weaker gun, but instead the gun in almost as powerful as an LMG. It ought to be more like an SMG in terms of power, maybe even less. Balance is a huge problem in this game, in that meaningful opportunity costs in choosing classes and weapons are pretty much gone.

Also, I didn't notice at first that user options are completely gone. At least in KZ2, you could set up a game with no Assault class if you felt it was OP or leave Pyrrhus Rise out of the rotation. My least favorite thing about current gen is how MP options have taken a huge step backward from the last two generations, either by being eliminated or imposing severe restrictions on them (like 0XP in Resistance 2, or restricting custom games to friends-only).

 

[Antan]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-making-of-killzone-3

Making of Killzone 3.

 

[Arwin]

I think it's way too much of an advantage. The tactical advantage of being able to hide anywhere ought to be compensated by a weaker gun, but instead the gun in almost as powerful as an LMG. It ought to be more like an SMG in terms of power, maybe even less. Balance is a huge problem in this game, in that meaningful opportunity costs in choosing classes and weapons are pretty much gone.

Also, I didn't notice at first that user options are completely gone. At least in KZ2, you could set up a game with no Assault class if you felt it was OP or leave Pyrrhus Rise out of the rotation. My least favorite thing about current gen is how MP options have taken a huge step backward from the last two generations, either by being eliminated or imposing severe restrictions on them (like 0XP in Resistance 2, or restricting custom games to friends-only).

It's already been announced that those user options are coming back. I assume it was easier for them to troubleshoot the more basic issues the game may still have at this point, and then when everything is confirmed stable after release they will reintroduce those options.

 

[patsu]

I thought the Jetpack machine gun is about as powerful as the SMG, but I need to check again. He has an advantage if shooting from higher ground (More chance of headshot).

Custom game will be patched in according to GG forum/blog post.

I don't think the Marksman makes a lot of difference in objective games, at least not in my games so far. First, I'd like to correct my mistakes. A few times, I thought I saw a group of hidden enemies, but in reality, I was in a captured TSP lol. So those enemies were spawned right there -- (no) thanks to the Tacticians.

The Infiltrator is hands down the best Search and Retrieve champion. So far I believe the Engineer, Tacticians and Medic make the most differences in objective games in general. When attacking, the TSPs make a strategic difference (e.g., In Salamun Market, they are right outside the Search and Destroy objectives). There is also one or two ammo crates near the objectives. Once those resources are captured or repaired, it is a significant advantage no Marksman can undo. I can spam grenades 3 at a time to soften the compound before charging in. High level Tacticians and Infiltrators can also spam rockets. Once in the objective room, I would spray everywhere to identify any Marksman, while my teammate(s) behind me take the objectives. If I were taken down, I'll have a second chance to attack enemies from behind (or while they were disarming our charges).

So far, the most annoying Marksman are best in locking down certain routes. e.g., straight down the corridor, near spawn points; but it's usually a temporary advantage (Good for delaying enemies, like Infiltrator camp raping the spawn point). But you have the Exo, Jetpack and WASP to wipe them off the battlefield in some maps. Marksman is also handy at sniping people off the noisy WASP. ^_^

EDIT: In general, the Infiltrator's perfect disguise also doesn't amount to a solid win. We bullet check every man coming into the objectives. Once they are exposed, the Engineer's turret should be activated. Infiltrators are most useful for sprint speed, and may be in hectic situations where we can't check every man.

 

[2real4tv]

 

[oramay]

Finished the split-screen co-op yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it. I know not everyone like it, but we enjoyed the on-rail sections just fine. Some cutscenes have bloopers like forgetting to wear the right clothes and may be a bit abrupt like the ending. Overall, I still like the SP a lot.

I guess the map fearsomepirate first tried is the noisy "turbine" map. In my experience, I don't really feel the jetpack is overpowered. They are easy to get at spawn points and I mostly only use it for movement and an infinite ammo machine gun. Infinite ammo is the only advantage I can see in that gun.

I'm not sure whether Marksman is overpowered or not. I have spent most of my time as Tactician. I guess GG should be in a good position to work that out now assuming they have the statistics for popularity of classes, which class killed which how often etc.

I still miss the ability to spawn on squad leader though. It not only spares people a lot of running around, it also allows random non-talking people to have some basic cooperation. It helps random people sticking together and hunt in packs. Doubt they'll bring this back. Well, at least they will patch in custom games.

 

[patsu]

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/194/avermediacenter20110303.jpg

Hey, I remember that scene ! Was hoping to pilot the quadruped robot in the game. Reminded me of the Metal Gear Rex vs Ray fight in MGS4. ^_^

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, that was pretty cool

 

[specwarGP2]

Is it me or does the game sometimes not count my assists and kills?

 

[patsu]

Holy crap, you tally the assist scores ?

It's possible ! The netcode is new, and we know there is at least the "MTU too small" bug. I think I got 3 free points, but I'm not entirely sure. Have been playing a lot over the weekend.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Patsu, you mentioned earlier that you don't think the art in KZ3 is as visually consistent as in KZ2. I'm just wondering what your reasons were for thinking that?

I just finished the campaign at the weekend and i thought it was really satisfying actually. Played with Move and i must say that i'm absolutely hooked on Move-controlled shooters now, such that i don't wanna play another shooter without it

KZ3 i thought was a seriously stunning game. The AA worked really nicely for the most part and i did appreciate the added colour a bit more than the first game. Although i loved KZ2 mainly due to the very dark, gritty, moody tones which surprisingly weren't present in KZ3. At the same time though i loved KZ3's campaign as i felt the story was better told, i cared much more about the characters (Rico redeemed! ), and it felt much more like an adventure for me

I think KZ2 was a game that wanted to focus more on psuedo-realism and immersion. It's atmosphere, gunplay, weighty controls and overall design. It was for me through the dreary colour tones, bleakness of the world and ferocity of the Helghast assault that i was told the story of the Visari-led Helghast's last stand on their homeworld against the ISA forces. KZ3 was a very different beast entirely, and i was actually initially taken aback in the first couple of hours of play because the tone of the game seemed lighter (in terms of character dialogue), it was more colourful and i felt it lost alot of that bleakness and atmosphere that KZ2 had. That's the reason why for me i can understand how the reviews could differ so much, with some outright blasting the game and GG. On the other hand though, as i got more into the game i found myself doing things i'd never done playing KZ2; caring about the characters, world and lore, and even finding myself emotionally invested in the story and plot as i would be when watching a movie or something. I found myslelf cheering for characters, empathising with them in their plight. I really admired the main enemies and i thoroughly enjoyed the dynamics between them and how the power struggle going on in the vacuum left in Visari's wake was affecting the government and military leadership of the helghast people. I found myself for the first time seeing the Helghast as much more than just "dudes in masks with glowing eyes". So for me by the end i was taken aback a few times after dropping a Helghast with my SMG.

By the end of KZ3 I was much more able to appreciate the game as a whole and for me i'd place it above KZ3 in terms of the entertainment value of the SP campaign. KZ2 was an incredible experience, but KZ3 was a better one, albeit very different also.

I loved the art and especially the final sequence.... (being the closest thing i'll propably get to a new Colony Wars from Sony, that bit alone makes it a GOTY for me )

 

[manux]

Tried KZ3 with move+3d mode on at sonystyle. Pretty awesome how the graphics pop out and immerse you in 3d mode. Move didn't feel very natural in such a short period. I'm sold to 3d in games now, it really does give you something plain 2d displays don't have.