[PS3] Killzone 3 game discussion

[fearsomepirate]

No, there is a difference. If I shoot a player and the player drops to the ground, I assume he's dead, just as I'm dead as a tactician when that happens.

This is not even true in Killzone 2. A player isn't dead until he stopps *moving,* not merely when he stops standing. Same also holds in MAG. And you don't need to pump your entire clip into him if you're being careful with burst fire. Of course, a balanced team ought to have engineers building ammo crates, and in a pinch, your downed foe's weapon likely has a few bullets left in it.

I do think the levels are rather big though and not having a spawn grenade certainly hurts (I still don't get the useless spawn points).

Meh. I'm not thrilled about spawn points, but spawn grenades were too easy to break. Nothing was more infuriating than some n00b kid dropping the spawn grenades in your base or facing a wall or something. On the other hand, if the enemy has both spawn points, they can be really hard to take back. I pretty much stick to bot matches thus far, because I don't think I care enough to put in the time to unlock things, but if you're having a problem traversing the maps to get to the objective, you probably need to take a spawn point. But that may require teamwork, unlike KZ2, where a solo tactician (usually played by fearsomepirate) could turn the tide of the game by ignoring his stupid teammates and dropping spawn grenades in quiet locations. I wish this game had splitscreen bot matches, because I miss Timesplitters something fierce.

I am probably just going to keep playing MAG. Pretty much every multi FPS out there feels like Baby Gaga Lala time compared to MAG.

 

[patsu]

Ammo crates are not that useful in objective games. I can't always leave my current position. The crates in the wild might be camped by a Marksman or Infiltrator. There are usually weapons lying around from all the dead people. I believe an "arch-medic" will revive you with a grenade. Stay with your team and defend your position, soldier.

EDIT:

I am probably just going to keep playing MAG. Pretty much every multi FPS out there feels like Baby Gaga Lala time compared to MAG.

Same here, but KZ3 allows a different kind of tactics/deceptions. So I may split my time between the 2. Will still stick mostly with MAG though. I feel like a man in that game.

I forgot to say when you level up enough, you'll get to carry another primary weapon as your secondary weapon. Don't spend too much points on secondary weapons.

EDIT 2:
The ammo limit may also help to keep a full team of Marksmans in check. I think in general, a good mix of soldiers should outperform a pure bred team in Warzone.

 

[fearsomepirate]

The ammo limit may also help to keep a full team of Marksmans in check.

I would think the fact that you need to be close to an objective to take it would keep a full team of Marksmen in check.

 

[patsu]

I would think the fact that you need to be close to an objective to take it would keep a full team of Marksmen in check.

Yeah but what about a defending team of Marksman ? Infiltrator would be useless because he can't be invisible like a real Marksman.

EDIT: I am not sure if a Tactician can spot perfectly cloaked Marksman. I suspect not.

I am also not sure if Proximity Mines will work on them. Need to experiment.

 

[nightshade]

Finished the game today and I am utterly disappointed with the Single Player.

Its like GG just thought of a couple of set piece events and then decided to make the game around those. And its way too short, I mean 4.2 hours on Veteran is a joke when compared to the ~10 hours I spent in Killzone 2 first run which was on Veteran as well. The cutscenes are simply too badly directed and the plot doesn't succeeds in holding my interest, on the other hand Killzone 2's plot and events kept me interested. The whole premise of Killzone 2 ie. war through the eyes of a foot soldier stuck in a bad situation impressed me so much, here its just your cliche larger than life (even by gaming standards) soldiers who always go against the odds and succeed followed by lots of hoo-haa. The correct way to say this would be that everything feels just so....disconnected.

I couldn't recall even one memorable event from the game except maybe the last 2nd level where we are introduced to something new. This is in contrast to Killzone 2 where there were so memorable events like the epic salamun bridge bridge push, the train level, suljeva village and ofcourse the battle at Visari palace. I still remember the cutscene before the salamun bridge bridge level started where Narville says 'Damn, we are getting our asses kicked" and thinking that man this is gonna be one hell of a fight, I was waiting for KZ3 to show me something like that but much to my disappointment I was left waiting. There's improvement in gameplay, but everything else is a step backwards. The game also felt like it lacked a lot of polish compared to KZ2.

P.S.[I don't even wanna talk about the Pyruss Crater multiplayer map, whoever even though having such a harsh green tint along with such a steep tilt would be a good idea ]

 

[BoardBonobo]

Kind of how I felt after finishing it in two sittings. There is nothing in the game that is quite the same seat of your pants feeling as some of the big showdowns in KZ2. It's almost like GG had something to prove with KZ2 and, having achieved that quite impressively, they haven't quite been so bothered with KZ3. It also feels so much easier, like it has been toned down to be more acceptable to COD players. The problem I have with that is if I want to play COD I'll play COD. If I want something gritty and challenging I'd play KZ.

It may look better than KZ2 and it certainly feels slicker, but it definitely doesn't play better. I'm getting more out of Bulletstorm which has a very Gears feel to it.

 

[nightshade]

Hell I love Bulletstorm, probably going to end up in my top FPS of 2011.

It's almost like GG had something to prove with KZ2 and, having achieved that quite impressively, they haven't quite been so bothered with KZ3.

Which is exactly what's going on, I died a little when I heard the loud transformers like music play as soon as the credits started, such a stark contrast with the ending and the music that you hear when you boot the game up.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Finished the game today and I am utterly disappointed with the Single Player.

Its like GG just thought of a couple of set piece events and then decided to make the game around those. And its way too short, I mean 4.2 hours on Veteran is a joke when compared to the ~10 hours I spent in Killzone 2 first run which was on Veteran as well. The cutscenes are simply too badly directed and the plot doesn't succeeds in holding my interest, on the other hand Killzone 2's plot and events kept me interested. The whole premise of Killzone 2 ie. war through the eyes of a foot soldier stuck in a bad situation impressed me so much, here its just your cliche larger than life (even by gaming standards) soldiers who always go against the odds and succeed followed by lots of hoo-haa. The correct way to say this would be that everything feels just so....disconnected.

I couldn't recall even one memorable event from the game except maybe the last 2nd level where we are introduced to something new. This is in contrast to Killzone 2 where there were so memorable events like the epic salamun bridge bridge push, the train level, suljeva village and ofcourse the battle at Visari palace. I still remember the cutscene before the salamun bridge bridge level started where Narville says 'Damn, we are getting our asses kicked" and thinking that man this is gonna be one hell of a fight, I was waiting for KZ3 to show me something like that but much to my disappointment I was left waiting. There's improvement in gameplay, but everything else is a step backwards. The game also felt like it lacked a lot of polish compared to KZ2.

P.S.[I don't even wanna talk about the Pyruss Crater multiplayer map, whoever even though having such a harsh green tint along with such a steep tilt would be a good idea ]

It sounds like you should've started at a higher difficulty level. 4.2 hours is an amazing time for just about any campaign. You should be a game tester, in your spare time.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I really enjoyed the SP, though frankly, KZ1 had a more interesting campaign than either 2 or 3. It just ran and controlled like crap...but IMO, an HD remix of the first game would easily be the best of the trilogy.

I think there were plenty of "wow" moments. The whole sequence on the oil platforms or whatever they were was amazing. The MAWLR fight, of course, was unforgettable, and I really liked the mobile factory level, too. I agree with everyone who disliked the final sequence. I wanted an epic boss fight, or a last, super-pumped battle with piles of Helghast. An on-rails gun turret sequence is about the worst imaginable way to end an FPS.

But it was still good, still one of the best current-gen single player FPS campaigns I've played.

 

[messyman]

It took me about 8-9 hours to beat the game.
But according to the chapter selection, my total time was about 4 and a half hours.
I don't think "best time" counts re-tries.

I agree with Pyruss Crater multiplayer map tho. The green looks ugly!

 

[2real4tv]

I agree with Pyruss Crater multiplayer map tho. The green looks ugly!

Bad Bad decision.

 

[patsu]

Didn't play the first game. As far as story goes, I actually think KZ2 and KZ3 are not too far apart. Their endings are both abrupt. I also don't exactly remember how things progressed in both games after a while. ^_^ KZ3 is more disconnected because the story timeline is longer, and needs some more editing.

But I suspect KZ3 suffers more from gamers' expectation. We are all expecting another epic FPS push. But the game took a touch-n-go with more variety approach (probably due to early criticisms that KZ2 is "just" a corridor shooter despite industry leading visuals).

On the good side, I remember Visari Palace from KZ2; I remember MAWLR from KZ3. On the bad sides, I remember infinite spawn, and dubious teammate AI in KZ2. I remember abrupt cutscene transitions with short FPS segments in KZ3. But they are both very good production/games. The excellent teammate AI in KZ3 made the gunfight more pleasant for me. Wondering if it had caused the game to be too easy for some. I remember GG dumbed down the KZ2 teammate AI for this very reason.

KZ2 is my top pick for art with a strong and consistent vision. Use of colors is minimal but stylish, effects are so very subtle and beautiful. KZ3 has a beefier collection of good art but less consistent as a result. Effects are more obvious, lines are clearer, but some of the atmosphere is gone (No more gloom and doom).

Personally, I think KZ3 is a better game, but KZ2 is a better art piece. Even the controls are sacrificed somewhat for the sake of a very unique movie-like experience. OTOH, KZ3 has better controls, and uses less vulgar languages, hence can entertain more people.


EDIT:
As for MP, I think the keyword for KZ2 is "Maniac". Chaos, clusterf*cks, heavy environmental effects are the order of the day. Your mission is to f*ck up people's plans and life in the game. It can be fun and frustrating at the same time. Sometimes, I'd abandon the objectives because everyone died too much there, and focus on hunting camping snipers.

So far I feel that the keyword for KZ3 is "Deception". The near perfect cloaking, disguise, self revival, Tactician radar, spot and mark, turrets and bots are all part of a complex tussle of deception + reveal in the warzone. Hell, when I play as an Infiltrator, I actually walk backwards and fire in the opposite direction (at my comrades since there is no friendly damage) to get closer and closer to the objectives.

 

[patsu]

It took me about 8-9 hours to beat the game.
But according to the chapter selection, my total time was about 4 and a half hours.
I don't think "best time" counts re-tries.

Yea, that's what I read from GAF. Need to check my own time.

 

[Phil]

This is not even true in Killzone 2. A player isn't dead until he stopps *moving,* not merely when he stops standing. Same also holds in MAG. And you don't need to pump your entire clip into him if you're being careful with burst fire. Of course, a balanced team ought to have engineers building ammo crates, and in a pinch, your downed foe's weapon likely has a few bullets left in it.

I do get that players *can* be revivied. In KZ2 it just wasn't ever an issue, since even if he did get revived, he never held any advantage over the player who just shot him. I also couldn't revive himself. Self-revivial is like 2nd-life in CoD - an annoying perk.

I pretty much stick to bot matches thus far, because I don't think I care enough to put in the time to unlock things, but if you're having a problem traversing the maps to get to the objective, you probably need to take a spawn point. But that may require teamwork, unlike KZ2, where a solo tactician (usually played by fearsomepirate) could turn the tide of the game by ignoring his stupid teammates and dropping spawn grenades in quiet locations.

And THAT is what made KZ2 the epic game it was. Turning the tide by a single brilliant action of a tactician... I have yet to see something as epic in KZ3.

 

[Phil]

EDIT:
As for MP, I think the keyword for KZ2 is "Maniac". Chaos, clusterf*cks, heavy environmental effects are the order of the day. Your mission is to f*ck up people's plans and life in the game. It can be fun and frustrating at the same time. Sometimes, I'd abandon the objectives because everyone died too much there, and focus on hunting camping snipers.

So far I feel that the keyword for KZ3 is "Deception". The near perfect cloaking, disguise, self revival, Tactician radar, spot and mark, turrets and bots are all part of a complex tussle of deception + reveal in the warzone. Hell, when I play as an Infiltrator, I actually walk backwards and fire in the opposite direction (at my comrades since there is no friendly damage) to get closer and closer to the objectives.

Yes, KZ2 did suffer from clusterf*cks, especially in Blood Gracht, but it was something that was easily avoidable if you played the smaller 8vs8 games for instance. To be fair, you don't even have 32 player matches anymore in KZ3 and the levels are much larger, so it really can't happen anymore. The clusterf*cks wasn't because of spawn grenades though, but mainly because of some bad level design, weak home base defence. Easily solvable. As much as an enemy single spawn grenade could hurt your team, a single spawn grenade from your team could turn the tide.

As a whole though, the game was much more balanced. They forced players to use their classes (to unlock the 2nd ability). In KZ3 - all you need to do is uplevel enough in a given class and you can practically unlock all other classes without even trying to use them in any way that would benefit your team as a whole. In KZ3, I get the feeling, every upgraded ability of a class is to make you stronger/more powerful, something that wouldn't directly help you complete an objective as a team better.

The levels are way too large. They reduced the ammo and the number of players. I played the Corinth Highway level yesterday in Warzone and it was ridiculous how far you had to track to even get close to an objective. The frustrating thing was, it was a maxed out level (12vs12) and it was like we were scathered all across different parts of the map, trying to desperately fullfill the objective one way or the other. There was absolutely no team-work involved.

Team-work isn't something you can force. Either you influence it through good level design, objectives and class-abilities so that it happens naturally between strangers or it just doesn't happen. KZ3/Warzone is a mixed bag IMO. There are some levels where it works naturally and some where it's just non-existant (unless playing clan-matches, which not everyone has the luxury to be apart of). The main reason I see is because of huge levels and missing spawn-grenades. I hate to bring up KZ2, but there, it just worked.

In a perfect (KZ) world, you'll have people occupying all classes in your team. If you do, it's great and it may work well together to preserve the balance. Unfortunately, this is not often the case. I've been usually stuck with infiltrators and marksmen in my team with few to no engineers. That wouldn't be as much a problem (in KZ2 at least) if you had more ammo but since you don't, you really do feel the unbalance.

If you're complaining about levels being too large, play operations, it's like BFBC2 where you only play in a small portion of the map at a time and progress to the next part after the objectives are met. There are only 3 maps, so you can get to memorize them quicker.

You are right. I tried Operations yesterday and it was brilliant. Much smaller levels, clearer objectives, more action and less frustrating gameplay. It was a lot of fun indeed. Definately a big plus over the Warzone (and GW) mode... thanks! :smile:

 

[fearsomepirate]

I would hold off a little bit on judging the multiplayer simply because people are still learning the game. All objective/class-based shooters have the same problem early on. You get a large influx of players from a TDM-based game where you win by choosing your favorite loadout and racking up kills, and it takes them a while to learn that it's better to switch classes to something your team needs than to just be a sniper because that's what you always did in COD. So maybe some of these problems (like being on a team with no engineers or tacticians) will iron themselves out after a while.

I also agree that the maps are too big, especially when there aren't any spawn grenades.

 

[patsu]

Yap, many complained that the MAG maps are unfair earlier on, but they bring countless hours of challenges and entertainment for me and those who figured it out.

At this moment, I think KZ3 MP gives me a different set of challenges and rules. With a little help from GG, I think we should be able to figure this one out too.


I got the highest level of cloaking and also for disguise yesterday.

Camping at the objectives as a Marksman is a little like sitting on the toilet bowl waiting for business to happen. Because the maps are big and maze-like, the action/fun may be elsewhere but I couldn't see it (I could hear them though !). If I wander around, I have to resist firing at random enemies. I'm not completely invisible when I fire a weapon. They can still see ripples. The only perfect cloaking combination is if I use the silenced secondary weapon which I don't have yet. I think tonight I will play offensive Marksman. Screw my cover. Playing with a group of Marksman should also be more fun.

Also tried Infiltrator's highest disguise, for some reason, they could still identify me when I walk. I wonder what the safety distance is. The enemies didn't fire at everybody, just me. There is this one enemy Infiltrator who made it all the way to our camp though. I was impressed. He certainly caused a lot of havoc in our safe house. I died 3 times to him around the base until we found who the [strike]chap[/strike] idiot was. .

Playing as an "arch medic" feels the best. I'm always in the thick of the action (Right outside your objectives baby !). There are plenty of hapless people to save. Also got the group-heal medic bot yesterday. So I have a pet flying above me, like a Tactician airbot. That feels cool ! The only missing touch is have the bot talk to me (It only lasts for a while).

 

[patsu]

And THAT is what made KZ2 the epic game it was. Turning the tide by a single brilliant action of a tactician... I have yet to see something as epic in KZ3.

I was hoping they improve the spawn grenade instead of ripping it out completely. In the current design, they probably should create more TSPs for Tacticians to capture and fight over.

You can turn the tide with other classes now though. Everyone died, but I prevented a squad from taking over our Search and Destroy objectives in the nick of time. ISA barely had enough time, so they didn't bother to melee me one more time. I revived and knocked both objective takers out (There were more enemies !). Just as I fell, I saw a teammate at the entrance and the game ended. ^_^

 

[corduroygt]

You still need good level design and KZ3, while excellent, still does not match the level of teamwork in Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory. I remember the fuel dump map, where you could take a special ops to open a locked door (it was like infiltrator in KZ3 with disguise, but you had to kill someone first to take their clothes), and an engineer (only class that can arm and defuse charges) to blow it up in the beginning of the mission without going through all the intermediary objectives. That (completely freeware I might add) game is one of the best games with teamwork and different classes I have ever seen. I loved playing every class there.

 

[nightshade]

It sounds like you should've started at a higher difficulty level. 4.2 hours is an amazing time for just about any campaign.

I said I played it on Veteran, that's the highest difficulty available for the first playthrough. And I clocked in around 10 hours in Killzone 2's first playthrough which was on Veteran as well. I didn't die a lot in the game so even if you include the retries, we are only talking about 20-30 minutes of extra time here.

You should be a game tester, in your spare time

No one's making a game in Liverpool