PS3 = 512Mbit XDR-DRAM (and Nintendo to adopt XDR-DRAM?)

[one]

The previous report about the change to 256Mbit XDR-DRAM chips in the PS3 was apparently wrong or 256Mbit chips might be for another customer.

This Japanese Reuters article (machine translation) states that the Elpida CEO said that Sony adopted 512Mbit XDR-DRAM for the next-gen PlayStation.

Curiously, the English version of this article omits the '512Mbit' statement, so it's not yet clarified.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7576768

INTERVIEW-UPDATE1-Elpida to Supply DRAM for New Sony PlayStation
Wed Feb 9, 2005 03:01 AM ET

TOKYO, Feb 9 (Reuters) - Japan's Elpida Memory Inc. (6665.T: Quote, Profile, Research) said on Wednesday it would supply DRAM chips for Sony Corp.'s (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research) next-generation PlayStation game console, a move that could significantly bump up demand for its advanced microchips.

Elpida said domestic rival Toshiba Corp. (6502.T: Quote, Profile, Research) and South Korea's Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. (005930.KS: Quote, Profile, Research) would also supply chips for the console.

"Those three will be chosen as suppliers. The ratio between the three firms is a matter to be decided later," Elpida Chief Executive Yukio Sakamoto told Reuters in an interview.

Sony plans to unveil the working version of the new console in May, but the electronics and entertainment conglomerate has yet to announce the specific timing of the launch.

Sony has sold a total 183 million units of its blockbuster game consoles PlayStation and PlayStation 2 as of the end of 2004, making the game division its profit driver.

Sakamoto said the world's fifth-largest DRAM chip maker was also in talks with Sony rival Nintendo Co. Ltd. (7974.OS: Quote, Profile, Research) to supply DRAM chips for its new game console, but that the final decision would be up to Nintendo.

Kyoto-based Nintendo also plans to unveil its new game console, codenamed "Revolution," in May.

Sakamoto said there was a high possibility Elpida would take steps, such as the acquisition of land, in the next few years to build another 300-mm silicon wafer chip factory. The company is now building a 500 billion yen ($4.73 billion) chip plant in Hiroshima, western Japan.

He added that chip demand had already hit bottom, and that February orders would likely grow 5-6 percent compared with December levels, while orders in March would likely post double-digit growth versus December.

Elpida said in January it swung to profit in the latest quarter on steady output expansion, but cut its annual outlook due to sluggish demand for chips used in digital electronics and mobile phones.

Electronics makers boosted output of flat screen televisions, DVD recorders and other digital electronics last year, but a lull in demand after the Athens Olympic Games led to a pileup of inventories, which then dampened microchip demand.

Elpida has adopted a strategy of specialising in high-end chips for mobile phones and digital electronics, steering away from a head-to-head tussle with stronger industry leaders Samsung and Micron Technology Inc. (MU.N: Quote, Profile, Research) in the mainstay market for PC chips.

Sakamoto said Elpida aimed to take a 50 percent share of the estimated $8 billion market for cellphone-use DRAM chips in 2008.

Shares in Elpida were up 1.0 percent at 4,060 yen in late afternoon, outperforming the Tokyo stock market's electric machinery index , which was up 0.42 percent.

($1=105.81 Yen)

It leads to this configuration in the PS3:

256MB XDR-DRAM @ 25.6GB/s - CPU - (FlexIO 76.8GB/s) - GPU - eDRAM(?)

 

[DemoCoder]

Not enough RAM IMHO, and if the GPU shares system RAM, than this sucks. You can get GPUs today with 35gb/s of bandwidth. If the PS3 GPU has share system memory, it will have less bandwidth than a top of the line Nvidia or ATI card today. This would be thoroughly disappointing, given that next-gen GPUs should be doing heavy AA, HDR filtered textures, and framebuffer.

So, let us hope that the NVidia GPU has its own bank of hi-speed XDR RAM.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Democoder, it is quite likely that the GPU has its own XDR memory pool or e-DRAM directly on the chip.

 

[nAo]

So, let us hope that the NVidia GPU has its own bank of hi-speed XDR RAM.

or its own eDRAM...

 

[London Geezer]

Well, even if the GPU has its own eDRAM, the system will be memory limited if it only has 256MB of RAM. Like PS2 was VERY memory limited, even though the GS had eDRAM.

*Me hopes for 512MB*

*Me hopes for separate VRAM, or much higher bandwidth if UMA*

 

[Titanio]

256MB XDR-DRAM @ 25.6GB/s - CPU - (FastIO 76.8GB/s) - GPU - eDRAM(?)

Sorry for the potentially silly question, but what happened to 50-100GB/sec talked about before?

 

[cybamerc]

Xbox 2 looks like it could end up with only 256 mb as well. Is 512 mb better? Of course. But developers will just have to make due. You can't get everything.

 

[one]

256MB XDR-DRAM @ 25.6GB/s - CPU - (FastIO 76.8GB/s) - GPU - eDRAM(?)

Sorry for the potentially silly question, but what happened to 50-100GB/sec talked about before?

Dunno, maybe possible with 2 PEs?

 

[PiNkY]

What's up with tech people these days? I mean, a company (basically) announces a system with a 256Gflops+ cpu, a blue-ray drive, very fast ram (by today's standards at least), a next gen gpu at an entry-level pc price point, yet everybody and their grandmothers seem disappointed....

 

[London Geezer]

What's up with tech people these days? I mean, a company (basically) announces a system with a 256Gflops+ cpu, a blue-ray drive, very fast ram (by today's standards at least), a next gen gpu at an entry-level pc price point, yet everybody and their grandmothers seem disappointed....

Well u know what we're like, u give us a finger, we want the whole arm... errr

 

[DemoCoder]

I highly doubt eDRAM. The PS3 GPU is Nvidia's next-gen NV5x GPU architecture. This would have been based on video ram, not eDRAM, most likely GDDR-4 or XDR. No way they can fab a chip with 24-32pipelines *PLUS* enough eDRAM to hold a 1080p 4xFSAA backbuffer and related textures. eDRAM is not a holy grail solution. We know that having 128-256mb of video ram makes a huge difference to today's GPUs. No way they could fit 128-256mb of eDRAM on die.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I highly doubt eDRAM. The PS3 GPU is Nvidia's next-gen NV5x GPU architecture. This would have been based on video ram, not eDRAM, most likely GDDR-4 or XDR. No way they can fab a chip with 24-32pipelines *PLUS* enough eDRAM to hold a 1080p 4xFSAA backbuffer and related textures. eDRAM is not a holy grail solution. We know that having 128-256mb of video ram makes a huge difference to today's GPUs. No way they could fit 128-256mb of eDRAM on die.

Correction: the GPU will be based on NV5X, but there is a reason why 50+ engineers from nVIDIA plus a nice legion of engineers from SCE will be working very hard on customizing the GPU for PlayStation 3 and SCE will be fabbing the GPU themselves.

SCE has quite advanced e-DRAM tech, co-developed with Toshiba, form the 90-65-45 nm nodes and they might be able to fit 64 MB of e-DRAM on the chip. Target resolution for next-generation games should be 720p not 1080p so that reduce the frame-buffer size requirements.

It is rumored that the GPU might not have any of the Vertex Shader logic (hopefully they keep the CLIPPING and CULLING logic) as that would would be done by the CELL based CPU. That frees some other space.

 

[London Geezer]

I highly doubt eDRAM. The PS3 GPU is Nvidia's next-gen NV5x GPU architecture. This would have been based on video ram, not eDRAM, most likely GDDR-4 or XDR. No way they can fab a chip with 24-32pipelines *PLUS* enough eDRAM to hold a 1080p 4xFSAA backbuffer and related textures. eDRAM is not a holy grail solution. We know that having 128-256mb of video ram makes a huge difference to today's GPUs. No way they could fit 128-256mb of eDRAM on die.

How about a hybrid? Not talking specifically about PS3 here, but i think a GPU with some eDRAM and VRAM to go with would be sweet. That way the framebuffer would be held on VRAM so the eDRAM doesn't need to be huge.
Now... What are the real advantages of having eDRAM?

 

[Panajev2001a]

I highly doubt eDRAM. The PS3 GPU is Nvidia's next-gen NV5x GPU architecture. This would have been based on video ram, not eDRAM, most likely GDDR-4 or XDR. No way they can fab a chip with 24-32pipelines *PLUS* enough eDRAM to hold a 1080p 4xFSAA backbuffer and related textures. eDRAM is not a holy grail solution. We know that having 128-256mb of video ram makes a huge difference to today's GPUs. No way they could fit 128-256mb of eDRAM on die.

How about a hybrid? Not talking specifically about PS3 here, but i think a GPU with some eDRAM and VRAM to go with would be sweet. That way the framebuffer would be held on VRAM so the eDRAM doesn't need to be huge.
Now... What are the real advantages of having eDRAM?

Huge bandwidth, much faster render-to-texture operations (if they do not have to go to main RAM and there is space in the e-DRAM of the GPU), higher fill-rate efficiency, etc...

 

[London Geezer]

How about a hybrid? Not talking specifically about PS3 here, but i think a GPU with some eDRAM and VRAM to go with would be sweet. That way the framebuffer would be held on VRAM so the eDRAM doesn't need to be huge.
Now... What are the real advantages of having eDRAM?

Huge bandwidth, much faster render-to-texture operations (if they do not have to go to main RAM and there is space in the e-DRAM of the GPU), higher fill-rate efficiency, etc...

Ok, and i take it those advantages are only available when holding the framebuffer on eDRAM?

 

[Panajev2001a]

How about a hybrid? Not talking specifically about PS3 here, but i think a GPU with some eDRAM and VRAM to go with would be sweet. That way the framebuffer would be held on VRAM so the eDRAM doesn't need to be huge.
Now... What are the real advantages of having eDRAM?

Huge bandwidth, much faster render-to-texture operations (if they do not have to go to main RAM and there is space in the e-DRAM of the GPU), higher fill-rate efficiency, etc...

Ok, and i take it those advantages are only available when holding the framebuffer on eDRAM?

When holding the back-buffer in the e-DRAM and leaving some space in the e-DRAM for off-screen surfaces, that is there are texture buffers in the e-DRAM too.

 

[cybamerc]

There are pros and cons to eDRAM. If a system has only 256 mb main RAM I would think most developers would prefer a large amount of video RAM over a moderate amount of eDRAM.

 

[DemoCoder]

A 256-bit bus based on XDR would use 16 XDR modules, each providing 6.4Gb/s for a total of 102gb/s bandwidth, which is twice the PS2 GS. Even if the PS2 GS ran at 300Mhz, it would still fall short. I don't see eDRAM adding any inherent advantage here. In fact, I see it as complicating the GPU design further, lowering yields, increasing heat, and utilizing transistors that could be allocated elsewhere, plus now you have to worry about shipping data between VRAM and EDRAM via some virtualization techique.

An X800 XT PE today delivers 35+gb/s, close to PS2 eDRAM peak. A 128-bit bus NV5x using XDR would have 256-512mb of memory and yield 51gb/s of bandwidth, which is pretty freaking impressive. It's a far less riskier design to, and one that NVidia knows how to build, because they have experience.

 

[DeanoC]

One of the key points about GPU eDRAM is not bandwidth but fixed cost.

With a contented memory bus, I have to cope with variable memory bandwidth, however with on chip eDRAM its exact and all mine.

So I can do things like always do a READ/MODIFY/WRITE cycle for free alpha-blending, or prehaps always output multiple depth fragements for free MSAA.

Do either on normal RAM and you starve something for no gain...

 

[Panajev2001a]

A 256-bit bus based on XDR would use 16 XDR modules, each providing 6.4Gb/s for a total of 102gb/s bandwidth, which is twice the PS2 GS. Even if the PS2 GS ran at 300Mhz, it would still fall short. I don't see eDRAM adding any inherent advantage here. In fact, I see it as complicating the GPU design further, lowering yields, increasing heat, and utilizing transistors that could be allocated elsewhere, plus now you have to worry about shipping data between VRAM and EDRAM via some virtualization techique.

e-DRAM = VRAM, like on the GS.

The rest of data would sit in main RAM and would arrive together with other data produced by the CPU through the fast FlexIO bus to which the GPU is connected.

An X800 XT PE today delivers 35+gb/s, close to PS2 eDRAM peak. A 128-bit bus NV5x using XDR would have 256-512mb of memory and yield 51gb/s of bandwidth, which is pretty freaking impressive. It's a far less riskier design to, and one that NVidia knows how to build, because they have experience.

A 256 bits XDR solution would mean 512 pins ONLY for data lines running through the system's PCB which is IMHO absurd to ask in PlayStation 3.

I think they could run e-DRAM at 100 GB/s or more for the GPU although they would not be able to include an amount higher than 64 MB IMHO.

I doubt though that they would go for 256 MB of shared main RAM (Hybryd-UMA design) and then include more than 64 MB as VRAM (whether e-DRAM or external XDR) although they might go as high as 128 MB for VRAM, but would they need that much VRAM ? Would not developer ask for less VRAM, but more main RAM ?

Keeping the front-buffer, the back-buffer and the Z-buffer all in VRAM and at 32 bits for 720p would take about 10.55 MB.

4xFSAA would increase the size of the back-buffer and of the Z-buffer and the total VRAM requirement would become ~32 MB.