PS3 = 512Mbit XDR-DRAM (and Nintendo to adopt XDR-DRAM?)

[cybamerc]

Like DeanoC said, 720p has been targetted as the HDTV resolution for the next generation.

I would agree it looks that way but at the same time one shouldn't assume that Sony or Nintendo are going to limit their hardware to 720p just because M$ does.

I'd prefer if they focus on other things like better shading and more geometry than on AA modes that will hardly be noticed at such high resolutions

One of the best ways to improve the visuals of a game is to add AA. Why do you think nearly every press shot these days has been enhanced? Even with higher resolutions AA will make a considerable difference.

 

[London Geezer]

One of the best ways to improve the visuals of a game is to add AA. Why do you think nearly every press shot these days has been enhanced? Even with higher resolutions AA will make a considerable difference.

It makes a considerable difference on Internet screenshots. On a HDTV, a nice 720p picture is very nice already. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, i just think there are other priorities. But that's my opinion.

 

[cybamerc]

On a HDTV, a nice 720p picture is very nice already.

On an LCD you're going to get razor sharp jaggies when running at the screen's native resolution. And scaled jaggies just looks nasty.

 

[London Geezer]

On a HDTV, a nice 720p picture is very nice already.

On an LCD you're going to get razor sharp jaggies when running at the screen's native resolution. And scaled jaggies just looks nasty.

I know... Fingers crossed. Today's cards can easily keep good framerates at 1024x768 with at least 4xAA and AF on top of it, so GPUs released next year should be ok with the workload.

 

[AzBat]

Like DeanoC said, 720p has been targetted as the HDTV resolution for the next generation.

I would agree it looks that way but at the same time one shouldn't assume that Sony or Nintendo are going to limit their hardware to 720p just because M$ does.

Hmm, who said MS was limiting their hardware to 720p? Everything points to standardizing all game development to 720p, but that doesn't necessarily mean their hardware won't be capable of playing at 1080i. Yes, due to the higher resolution of 1080i you might not see every game support it, but I think it will be a pretty high percentage.

Tommy McClain

 

[one]

Well, no comment on Nintendo Revolution...?

Though it is not clear what kind of RAM Nintendo wanted, considering Elpida has the license of XDR-DRAM, it's not out of question IMHO.

 

[Gubbi]

And i'll say this, then we'll see what happens..

Plasma/LCD screens prices are falling, certainly.

But the prices of ones that only support 480p are falling the most, so people will go out in the millions eventually, before 2007 surely, and buy "a plasma TV", cause they do no know what 720p or 1080i/p is, what 480p is.
Of course they will most likely buy the cheap plasma displays that only support 480p, like they bought the cheaper widescreen TVs that only supported 480i 5 years ago.

As DC said, we're stuck with crappy standards in Euro-land . The reason 480p displays are cheap here is because they are being phased out in leading markets (Japan+Asia and the U.S.), creating a surplus.

Cheers
Gubbi

 

[V3]

Btw, can someone explain me how can we be sure that given one chip's size, we can know how many of them will be used in PS3 (which gives us total memory) and what kind of bandwidth the memory will have?

Wasn't it said that Cell (one chip) would have 50GB/s memory bandwidth, and 100GB/s I/O bandwidth?

I guess you haven't been following the ISSCC thread. There are slides of the presentation in there somewhere.

Anyway, the Cell chip that was shown has roughly 25 GB/s bandwidth to memory and 75 GB/s to other stuff.

Given the reported memory frequency, the XDR memory interface is 64 bit wide, this mean you need 4 memory chips, and that report rumour 512 Mbit chip, that would give 256 MB of memory.

 

[pahcman]

One of the best ways to improve the visuals of a game is to add AA.

I dont believe in eye candy until i got card capable of AA/AF and i tell everyone i ain going back since. With sharper HD display next gen, no more low res hiding, AA/AF is really important.

Personally, I pretty much agree with what Alejux said, as I'd much rather have some film quality looking CGI in realtime on 480i or 480p, than games that look like what we have today, or sligthly better, only in 1080p with 4xFSAA... You can get that kind of look today on any decent PC anyways

That we must ask programmers how much more CGI like can it get with that res power saved? Will PS2 games please more at 320x240?
Strong amt of AA/AF will still be needed, probably stronger to not over blur the already low res.
480i on HD will still look terrible, especally for those with flat panels.

 

[KnightBreed]

Xenon, PS3, and Revolution will be around through 2010 at least. It seems rather silly to argue the importance of 1080 versus 720 given that we are currently 1 year away from any of these consoles hitting the market and another 5 years beyond that for incremental improvements in display technology and falling prices. 720p might be the standard for digital displays now...

HDTV sales have grown 30-40% annually the last 3 years, and is predicted to go even higher when digital television becomes the broadcast standard and HD optical media hits the market. 1920x1080 pixel displays have only recently hit the market and it will be several years before they come down to current mainstream big screen prices of $1500-2000. Hell, even current 720p microdisplay-based televisions haven't hit this price yet.

As long as there isn't a hardware limitation, it would be wise to just let the developer decide which resolution they want to support. I agree the likely standard for the next generation will be 720p or 1080i, with an eventual transition to 1080p as the market matures. But I disagree that it will take until PS4 for this to happen.


It seems like Sony is looking to leverage the PS3 to bolster their HDTV sales. If true, it's a brilliant strategy that will pay off huge dividends if Blu-ray wins the format war. HDTV sales will continue to skyrocket and HD content will eventually supercede DVD sales, all bringing in big dollars to Sony's CE division.

 

[London Geezer]

That we must ask programmers how much more CGI like can it get with that res power saved? Will PS2 games please more at 320x240?
Strong amt of AA/AF will still be needed, probably stronger to not over blur the already low res.
480i on HD will still look terrible, especally for those with flat panels.

What u on about?
People with Flat panels will play at HD resolutions!
In the end, logic performance will only grow so much till release, so they will only approach CGI by as much as it's technically possible. Resolution has already been decided, 720p is the target. Normal displays will get a scaled down resolutions.
Now they have to fill the gaps in performance with more geometry, fillrate, shading power.

 

[pahcman]

What u on about?
People with Flat panels will play at HD resolutions!
.

well duh. Are u even following the conversation? There are some suggest that next gen @ 720p is a waste and should concentrate that amt of resources to optimise 480i/p.

 

[Shogmaster]

what is 1080P actually?

1920x1080 progressive scan. They had a bunch of these sets at this year's CES. Some of the demos showing off increase over 720p (1280x720) were literally PC connected showing an EXCEL spreadsheet! I think I took a picture of that one.

most if not all TFT LCD screens I see here (belgium) are 1200*1000 resolution and plasmas are 824*640 or something like that.

That's 853x480 for "enhanced resolution" Plasmas, and 1280x720 for "HD" plasmas, here in the States.

 

[Farid]

Hmm, who said MS was limiting their hardware to 720p? Everything points to standardizing all game development to 720p, but that doesn't necessarily mean their hardware won't be capable of playing at 1080i. Yes, due to the higher resolution of 1080i you might not see every game support it, but I think it will be a pretty high percentage.

Actually 1080i won't be really hard to include, if the Xenon VRAM permit it.
Since there's "only" ~10% more pixels at 1080i than 720p.

 

[marconelly!]

That we must ask programmers how much more CGI like can it get with that res power saved? Will PS2 games please more at 320x240?
Strong amt of AA/AF will still be needed, probably stronger to not over blur the already low res.

There should be a limit, of course, but 4xFSAA in 1080p is just overkilling it, IMO. Sure, if GPU can do it entirely for free, then why not, but if all we can get in that res is something like games we see on PCs today, then it's not worth it.

 

[ninelven]

erased

 

[Inane_Dork]

SCE has quite advanced e-DRAM tech, co-developed with Toshiba, form the 90-65-45 nm nodes and they might be able to fit 64 MB of e-DRAM on the chip.

64 MB of eDRAM is quite a lot. If there is any, there shouldn't be that much.

 

[AzBat]

Hmm, who said MS was limiting their hardware to 720p? Everything points to standardizing all game development to 720p, but that doesn't necessarily mean their hardware won't be capable of playing at 1080i. Yes, due to the higher resolution of 1080i you might not see every game support it, but I think it will be a pretty high percentage.

Actually 1080i won't be really hard to include, if the Xenon VRAM permit it.
Since there's "only" ~10% more pixels at 1080i than 720p.

I thought it was over twice as many? I understand that with interlaced mode that the odd lines are drawn first and then the even lines are next. So all the data is there and not just thrown out, or is it?

BTW, how much embedded memory would be needed for a 720p image? 14MB?

Tommy McClain

 

[Inane_Dork]

BTW, how much embedded memory would be needed for a 720p image? 14MB?

Tis quite variable.

Assuming a 32 bit back buffer and a 32 bit Z/stencil buffer:
1280 * 720 * (4 + 4) = 7,372,800 bytes

But if you go with a 64 bit render target, multiple render targets or AA, the number changes (as I'm sure you know). I don't know if/how Z and color compression fit into this, though. Does the compression save on bandwidth or on size as well?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Colour and Z-buffer compression saves on bandwidth needed, not size.