PS2 the Bumpmap KING

[jvd]

in game:

5000-40000 polygons with normalmap
+ 100000-500000 polygons without bump(far poly)
+5-10 MB texture upload
+AI,anim,gamecode,physics....


this is what vers said his engine can do , the game code , ai , physics and what not on the other parts of the chips , this is from the first page


notice his engine can't hit a million polygons when using bumpmapping. My questionis what other effects is this engine doing ? I know that a development house will be able to make something more powerfull but still i don't see them doing a 100times better . mabye 10 times better.

 

[London Geezer]

in game:

5000-40000 polygons with normalmap
+ 100000-500000 polygons without bump(far poly)
+5-10 MB texture upload
+AI,anim,gamecode,physics....


this is what vers said his engine can do , the game code , ai , physics and what not on the other parts of the chips , this is from the first page


notice his engine can't hit a million polygons when using bumpmapping. My questionis what other effects is this engine doing ? I know that a development house will be able to make something more powerfull but still i don't see them doing a 100times better . mabye 10 times better.

i think he's talking about polys per frame matey, so it would come up to: 30000 - 2400000 polys with full bump map,
6000000 - 30000000 polys without bump (far away)...

am i wrong :? :?

 

[jvd]

in game:

5000-40000 polygons with normalmap
+ 100000-500000 polygons without bump(far poly)
+5-10 MB texture upload
+AI,anim,gamecode,physics....


this is what vers said his engine can do , the game code , ai , physics and what not on the other parts of the chips , this is from the first page


notice his engine can't hit a million polygons when using bumpmapping. My questionis what other effects is this engine doing ? I know that a development house will be able to make something more powerfull but still i don't see them doing a 100times better . mabye 10 times better.

i think he's talking about polys per frame matey, so it would come up to: 30000 - 2400000 polys with full bump map,
6000000 - 30000000 polys without bump (far away)...

am i wrong :? :?

i dunno have to ask him. Still though my question holds true , how man other effects can his code do ?

 

[Phil]

as I interperated it, it's per frame. And as he states, it should handle 60 fps, so multiply it by 60.

BTW; cool it with the posting. You're too quick... I should be working damnit!!!

Oh and my reply is on the last page - incase you missed it in this thread.

 

[Simon F]

.

Dreamcast supports it in hardware. big deal, it would be a performance nightmare puttining it in-game.

As I probably know more about the DC Bump map algorithm than anyone else, I feel justified in saying it would not have been a problem.

Ps2 does not support it in hardware. big deal, at least u can focus your attention to do all those effects that would kill a dreamcast.

Indeed the PS2 has a lot of fill rate -- it's just that it has a rather p.poor set of blend operations to choose from and so has to burn fill rate in order to emulate what other systems can do with much less effort.

 

[London Geezer]

.

Dreamcast supports it in hardware. big deal, it would be a performance nightmare puttining it in-game.

As I probably know more about the DC Bump map algorithm than anyone else, I feel justified in saying it would not have been a problem.

Ps2 does not support it in hardware. big deal, at least u can focus your attention to do all those effects that would kill a dreamcast.

Indeed the PS2 has a lot of fill rate -- it's just that it has a rather p.poor set of blend operations to choose from and so has to burn fill rate in order to emulate what other systems can do with much less effort.

cool, but the keyword here is EFFORT.... we know that doing anything on ps2 requires more effort than in other consoles to begin with.... the thing is, if it really is not a problem, why is there NO game whatsoever that uses it? can't just be because Devs were not comfortable with the algorithm........ if it's easy, it should be used...

it's like the guy from Naughty Dog saying how easy it would be for his engine to implement Bump mapping... unitl i see it i don't believe it...

 

[overclocked]

it's like the guy from Naughty Dog saying how easy it would be for his engine to implement Bum mapping... unitl i see it i don't believe it...

True!
But do we care, no.
Only Chap does..

 

[Crazyace]

DC bumpmapping

It would have been nice to see more bump mapping in DC titles - I thought the buxel implementation was pretty cool. ( as were many of the other effects )
The PS2 bumpmapping is excessively complicated by the limited blend modes ( I'm sure that 20-20 hindsight makes it obvious that proper colour blending should have been implemented.. ) but it should be able to match the DC poly counts for bumpmapped models..

This generation is I guess

DC x2-> PS2 -> GC x2-> Xbox

Probally similar to last generation

3DO x2-> Saturn -> PSX x2-> N64

( Before anyone gets upset about the comparision of DC to 3DO I think that 3DO had some pretty good games - especially from EA, that definately compared to the early Saturn/PSX offerings, and in many ways it's image quality was a lot better, as it had subpixel weighting to improve interlaced displays, amongst other things )

 

[Dural]

Anyone know what games on DC used bump mapping? I've been playing Virtua Tennis lately and could have sworn I saw some bump mapping on the walls at the English court during replays .

 

[wazoo]

Re: DC bumpmapping

( Before anyone gets upset about the comparision of DC to 3DO I think that 3DO had some pretty good games - especially from EA, that definately compared to the early Saturn/PSX offerings, and in many ways it's image quality was a lot better, as it had subpixel weighting to improve interlaced displays, amongst other things )

I think the 3do aged very badly. I tried to play my old unit a few months ago. I doubt I will do it anymore.

 

[Zeross]

Re: DC bumpmapping

( Before anyone gets upset about the comparision of DC to 3DO I think that 3DO had some pretty good games - especially from EA, that definately compared to the early Saturn/PSX offerings, and in many ways it's image quality was a lot better, as it had subpixel weighting to improve interlaced displays, amongst other things )

I think the 3do aged very badly. I tried to play my old unit a few months ago. I doubt I will do it anymore.

Everytime I come to see a friend who has one of the first 3DO we play Crash'n Burn it's enough for a good laugh

But if you want my opinion on this I find that Saturn & PSX aged very badly too :?

 

[wazoo]

Re: DC bumpmapping

Everytime I come to see a friend who has one of the first 3DO we play Crash'n Burn it's enough for a good laugh

crash'n burn crashed on PAL 3do

But if you want my opinion on this I find that Saturn & PSX aged very badly too :?

at least you can play ps1 games under emulations, and the ps1 had the backing of Square and Konami. Those games are still good enough. I did not know anything about the saturn before buying a DC, so I do not know :?

 

[jvd]

Re: DC bumpmapping

Everytime I come to see a friend who has one of the first 3DO we play Crash'n Burn it's enough for a good laugh

crash'n burn crashed on PAL 3do

But if you want my opinion on this I find that Saturn & PSX aged very badly too :?

at least you can play ps1 games under emulations, and the ps1 had the backing of Square and Konami. Those games are still good enough. I did not know anything about the saturn before buying a DC, so I do not know :?

The saturn had some really great games. But yea the graphics just like the psone graphics aged badly. Games to look out for , nights into dreams , sonic r , PD, PD2, PDS , shinning the holy ark , Shinning force 3 . I still think world wide soccer 98 is the best soccer game ever made . Bones was fun. then netlink with sega rally . 33.6 modem i believe it was. Good stuff .

 

[Lazy8s]

Net Link rocked! It was 28.8 kbps, but the games used direct dial which made the actual latency like broadband speeds - 30 ms pings I think (though, you'd have to pay for long-distance phone calls).

Virtual ON, SEGA Rally, Daytona CCE, Saturn Bomberman, and Duke Nukem 3D... I spent so many great hours playing those games online on Saturn!

 

[wazoo]

Net Link rocked! It was 28.8 kbps, but the games used direct dial which made the actual latency like broadband speeds - 30 ms pings I think (though, you'd have to pay for long-distance phone calls).

Virtual ON, SEGA Rally, Daytona CCE, Saturn Bomberman, and Duke Nukem 3D... I spent so many great hours playing those games online on Saturn!

After the Dc==ps2, we have Sega dial up == BB

 

[Lazy8s]

wazoo:

After the Dc==ps2, we have Sega dial up == BB

Latency is most critical in online gaming, and direct dial offers some of the lowest latency possible.

Let me try to explain this to you.

Net Link uses direct dial. Direct dial is just one modem making a phone call to another modem (hence, the reason playing someone in another area code would incur long-distance fees).

Latency is the measure of time it takes for your signal to reach its destination. The latency is low on direct dial because your signal is not being routed through hops over a network.

Good broadband services tend to give low latencies (not a resulting benefit of its bandwidth, mind you) similar to the 25-30ms pings of direct dial. Dial-up online networks, however, are usually at the mercy of internet traffic, routing, and unpredictability... they tend to suffer from latency and inconsistency issues.

This, the speed at which your packet reaches its destination, is more important than how much information can be fit through the pipeline at one time (bandwidth) for current online gaming.

 

[Lazy8s]

But if you want to talk about dial-up, SEGA did create a custom dial-up network in SegaNet which shared design philosophies with broadband services as opposed to standard dial-up ISPs. SegaNet used massive hubs located in major cities throughout the country to route users over their private internet backbone when possible. This improved performance for the user since their signal would be routed over less hops and unpredictable internet servers and traffic. The SegaNet ISP was the only major ISP custom built for the the lower latencies and more predictable, stable connection befitting the demands of pleasant online gaming.

 

[Tagrineth]

wazoo:

After the Dc==ps2, we have Sega dial up == BB

Latency is most critical in online gaming, and direct dial offers some of the lowest latency possible.

Let me try to explain this to you.

Net Link uses direct dial. Direct dial is just one modem making a phone call to another modem (hence, the reason playing someone in another area code would incur long-distance fees).

Latency is the measure of time it takes for your signal to reach its destination. The latency is low on direct dial because your signal is not being routed through hops over a network.

Good broadband services tend to give low latencies (not a resulting benefit of its bandwidth, mind you) similar to the 25-30ms pings of direct dial. Dial-up online networks, however, are usually at the mercy of internet traffic, routing, and unpredictability... they tend to suffer from latency and inconsistency issues.

This, the speed at which your packet reaches its destination, is more important than how much information can be fit through the pipeline at one time (bandwidth) for current online gaming.

Yup.

Not that it's a great example, but playing StarCraft using direct-dial multiplayer, there is no lag at all, while there is still some on dial-up internet play.

 

[wazoo]

I've played more than 150H on PSO on DC (so much that I'm afraid to touch the GC episode from less than one mile ), and I experienced lots of lag.

 

[Lazy8s]

wazoo:

I've played more than 150H on PSO on DC (so much that I'm afraid to touch the GC episode from less than one mile ), and I experienced lots of lag.

Which is expected considering PSO is of the dial-up ISP, over-a-network variety of online gaming I talked about - the one susceptible to the unpredictability and traffic of internet servers. That is not direct dial.

If the players of a PSO game were using the SegaNet dial-up ISP, though, they at least could've benefited from a faster and more stable signal since they would have been routed to the game servers more directly.