Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[Love_In_Rio]

Lighting is such a huge job and very demanding potentially for high quality GI that I could see value in dedicated silicon to pull it off, but I don't know what such silicon would look like or how it'd fit into the render pipeline (it'd be easy to use in a deferred renderer).

Isn´t the spus bunch the best example of a very efective lighting engine -as games like Uncharted 2, Killzone 2 and so on prove- ?. The funny thing would be MS taking that route while Sony ditching it.

No improved spus in next gen is a pitty. Maybe the best context for something like that is now and not last gen.

 

[Rangers]

I don't recall lherre verifying me, though at the same time I don't see why he would or would need to. Like I've mentioned before I just pass along what I think maybe ok to pass along and is worth discussing. I will add that last year one consistent thing I heard was that the overall performance between PS4 and Xbox 3 was debatable as to which one was better. There will probably be things PS4 does better than Xbox 3 and vice versa. I think things are still pointing in this direction and it will boil down to consumer preference.

I would also like to know where the large die info came from. Just for curiosity purposes.

That's the impression I get. Recently lherre said something along the lines of "both (ps4/720) are powerful". At a basic level it implies some equivalency, and I havent heard anything different from lherre.

I dont see why the Durango specs as rumored call for a large die anyway. It's basically a 7770+8 Jag cores+any alleged custom hardware. Total die size should be quite svelte. Which is why although I've doubted the APU stuff mostly, I'm starting to become amenable to it. Dont know if I'd bet on it, but I dont think it's crazy, either.

In fact to me if the Jag cores are as tiny as people say, it probably almost doesnt make sense to not glue them onto the GPU and make manufacturing easier theoretically. But I wonder where the ESRAM fits into it all considering they still havent integrated EDRAM in 360. Probably on a separate die on the same package, just like the current 360 setup...

 

[Love_In_Rio]

That's the impression I get. Recently lherre said something along the lines of "both (ps4/720) are powerful". At a basic level it implies some equivalency, and I havent heard anything different from lherre.

I dont see why the Durango specs as rumored call for a large die anyway. It's basically a 7770+8 Jag cores+any alleged custom hardware. Total die size should be quite svelte. Which is why although I've doubted the APU stuff mostly, I'm starting to become amenable to it. Dont know if I'd bet on it, but I dont think it's crazy, either.

In fact to me if the Jag cores are as tiny as people say, it probably almost doesnt make sense to not glue them onto the GPU and make manufacturing easier theoretically. But I wonder where the ESRAM fits into it all considering they still havent integrated EDRAM in 360. Probably on a separate die on the same package, just like the current 360 setup...

And if Sony after knowing about the 8 Jaguar cores decided to go too with 8 Jaguar cores instead of Steamroller, wouldn´t the systems be in the end quite similar?.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How I read it to put it simply is it just switches on rendering between 2 GPUs depending on certain situations. And claim 1 gives the provisions for it to translate instructions if the architectures are distinct. But if they aren't that'll work too.

A patent is supposed to be specific, and relates to a particular invention to solve a problem. If PS4 doesn't use different hardware architectures with a JIT compiler between CPU and the GPUs, this patent won't apply to it. Any discussion about PS4 featuring two GPUs can merrily ignore this patent for our uses, unless there's reason to think Sony will switch between low power and high power modes and want to use two different architectures (like PVR SGX and AMD Rxxxx).

 

[Bagel seed]

Well, I just think it's open to interpretation

Embodiments of the present invention as described herein may be extended to enable dynamic load balancing between two or more graphics processors for the purpose of increasing performance at the cost of power, but with architecturally similar GPUs (not identical GPUs as with SLI). By way of example, and not by way of limitation, a context switch may be performed between the two similar GPUs based on which one would have the higher performance for processing a given set of GPU input. Performance may be based, e.g., on an estimated amount of time or number of processor cycles to process the input.

The patent could be ignored anyways since from what I understand of HSA it'd cover these sort of operations.

 

[anexanhume]

That's the impression I get. Recently lherre said something along the lines of "both (ps4/720) are powerful". At a basic level it implies some equivalency, and I havent heard anything different from lherre.

I dont see why the Durango specs as rumored call for a large die anyway. It's basically a 7770+8 Jag cores+any alleged custom hardware. Total die size should be quite svelte. Which is why although I've doubted the APU stuff mostly, I'm starting to become amenable to it. Dont know if I'd bet on it, but I dont think it's crazy, either.

In fact to me if the Jag cores are as tiny as people say, it probably almost doesnt make sense to not glue them onto the GPU and make manufacturing easier theoretically. But I wonder where the ESRAM fits into it all considering they still havent integrated EDRAM in 360. Probably on a separate die on the same package, just like the current 360 setup...

Why would they not want a monolithic APU when that's what they drove to with the Xbox 360 Slim?


Unrelated, Sony is teasing the ps4 reveal, giving a May to E3 timeline: http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/16/sony-vp-tease-playstation-4/

 

[patsu]

Isn´t the spus bunch the best example of a very efective lighting engine -as games like Uncharted 2, Killzone 2 and so on prove- ?. The funny thing would be MS taking that route while Sony ditching it.

No improved spus in next gen is a pitty. Maybe the best context for something like that is now and not last gen.

Sony's CTO already outlined their approach many months ago:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=458527

- 'the company is working on a system-on-chip (SoC) to underpin the product for "seven to 10 years".'
- 'He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."' (Alternative quote in another article: ' “We are looking at an architecture where the bulk of processing will still sit on the main board, with CPU and graphics added to by more digital signal processing and some configurable logic.”)
- 'Tsuruta-san picked out emerging ‘through silicon via’ designs. These stack chips with interconnects running vertically through them to reduce length, raise performance and reduce power consumption.'
- 'Tsuruta-san has noted the difficulties in achieving viable yields at 28nm, though he believes that these problems are now moving towards a resolution.'
- Tsuruta: "We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”
- Tsuruta: "We understand that for this, we will need to offer a very strong SDK. We will retain our own OS for the main games and support that with a development environment that is viable. For online and other features, we are also thinking of a simpler approach to a Linux-type environment than on the PlayStation 3,"
- Seems to be a consciousness to try and accommodate potential future peripherals with high bandwidth needs

...

EDIT: If they stick to this plan, we will see DSP and programmable/configurable logic in PS4.

Hmm... He mentioned a simpler approach to Linux, whatever that means.

 

[Helmore]

Why would they not want a monolithic APU when that's what they drove to with the Xbox 360 Slim?


Unrelated, Sony is teasing the ps4 reveal, giving a May to E3 timeline: http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/16/sony-vp-tease-playstation-4/

May seems quite late IMHO. I had hoped we'd be having something more official from Sony earlier than that.

 

[Rangers]

Why would they not want a monolithic APU when that's what they drove to with the Xbox 360 Slim?

Why did they not start 360 with a "monolithic APU" then? Cause it's harder to fab.

Durango might be doable right away tho.

 

[MrFox]

Around xmas I talked to a friend working on a AAA game for next gen. He didn't want to tell me a thing about it, but he said that they "expect their game to look and perform identically on both". That doesn't mean much, but I'm pretty sure neither will have a clear edge over the other.

 

[jehovaTheThird]

1.2 TFlops, 3 custom blocks, 1D SIMD. Stereo 1080P, mono 4K.

 

[anexanhume]

Why did they not start 360 with a "monolithic APU" then? Cause it's harder to fab.

Durango might be doable right away tho.

Because the die would have been gigantic and impossible to cool, not to mention that wasn't an established paradigm at the time?

 

[Rangers]

I guess we're not disagreeing.

 

[MrFox]

Hmm... He mentioned a simpler approach to Linux, whatever that means.

That's weird, there are few good choices other than Linux (BSD, maybe?).
Maybe an old lightweight one like TRON or QNX. I seriously doubt they went all low-level and made their own.

BeOS?

 

[patsu]

That's weird, there are few good choices other than Linux (BSD, maybe?).
Maybe an old lightweight one like TRON or QNX. I seriously doubt they went all low-level and made their own.

BeOS?

He is saying the game OS is still proprietary to Sony but online and non-gaming features may be Linux based. Bunch of popular devices are based on Linux, including Android kernel. Not saying they will use Android but they may be able to share stuff if they go there. And vice versa (since PS4 architecture is closer to mainstream model).

FPGA use may be mundane but we shall see.

EDIT: Not sure if they need 2 web browsers (for Linux and Game OS, like old PS3) or toggle between Linux and Game OS when they switch in and out of the web browser.

 

[anexanhume]

I guess we're not disagreeing.

I think we misunderstood. You're saying you don't believe the big APU rumors. Not the APU rumors all together. Correct?

 

[Rangers]

I think we misunderstood. You're saying you don't believe the big APU rumors. Not the APU rumors all together. Correct?

Yeah. Since I dont think massive hardware is in Durango.

 

[liquidboy]

I believe the rumors are real!

I found some specs that sound like a fanboy dream about durango and I wish it were true so much.

I won't post it because I know it's not real but wow is this thing custom. It's really, really, really custom and I wish it was true.

None of these are the specs that you see on this forum.

What happened to your post that listed these rumors?

I actually do believe them..

Heres why ...

Those rumors talk about a radical new processor design that is backed by atleast 9 patents.

The guy on all those patents, Eric Mejdrich, started out at IBM then moved to MS 2 yrs ago. He's the architect for the chip design of the next xbox.

Other IBM distinguished engineers, some also on those patents, are now also at MS in the xbox devision.

MS also has some patents that leverage the same chip design, basically carrying on research with those chip designs.

The idea behind the processor is that its like stem cells. The basic unit is called a "Basic throughput engine (BTE)". It has a very simple scalable design that can be programmed to be specialized.

So when its manufactured you only need to FAB 1 design and test that 1 design. BUT when you assemble it on a SOC it can specialize to be several different components on that SoC.

This BTE can become a specialized in Physics processing, AI, Sound, Search, RayTracing, Animation etc. etc.

This BTE can also become something that specializes in processing Vectors, which the patents call a VTE, vector throughput engine.

I reiterate the fact that this one building block, BTE, can become specialzed to be so many things. And it only needs to be tested as a BTE.


This BTE needs huge amounts of memory, L1/L2 and RAM , to do its work. Traditionally what used to be done in software can now all stay on the hardware. So a games engine that needed to store a list of objects in a scene in RAM and managed by software, can do all that in the hardware and never leave the HW. It can just push these objects around the SoC via the huge pipes and processed thru the BTE's .

Another brilliant design around these BTE's is that they understand richer types of data structures, we can store rich objects, even trees of objects. All we need to do that is large amounts of memory and plumbing to allow the movement of these big chunks of data.

Again this all stays on the hardware, never leaving.

As a developer this is pretty amazing whats described in those several patents...

And 3 of those patents explicitly mention how it will achieve RayTracing, and the science/maths is there ... The HOW is explicitly explained, I do believe it is going to arrive in Xbox next..

Nothing out in the market comes close to what these new processors can do...

The CELL from IBM was a great processor by design, but in reality it was crazy hard to programme for. It did not have a great design around caching and object/object trees.

This design from IBM/Microsoft/AMD fixes all those failings of the CELL..

The magic around the new xbox, will be around this new processor architecture PLUS the software to make use of it. Basically MS could remove something that has been the pain point of game development for the last 2 decades, memory pointers. This chip will be shared memory across the entire SoC, all the components can share memory and pass the same rich object/object tree between them.

It can work on all objects within a scene per frame all on hardware never leaving.

If MS truly pulls this off, they will have a brilliant chip design for ALL there devices NOT JUST XBOX.

This chip will make its way into its phones, surface tablets, servers, desktops..

.... Its high stakes for MS .. they need there own chip for all the devices they plan on making in the future, its the only way they can truly own the entire experience from CHIP to OS, they never have to rely on dodgy chips from OEM's that take forever to release updated drivers that ultimately make there OS run crap! ..

MS wants to do chips ... trust me on that ...

 

[MrFox]

He is saying the game OS is still proprietary to Sony but online and non-gaming features may be Linux based. Bunch of popular devices are based on Linux, including Android kernel. Not saying they will use Android but they may be able to share stuff if they go there. And vice versa (since PS4 architecture is closer to mainstream model).

FPGA use may be mundane but we shall see.

Ah okay, I didn't understand it that way, that makes more sense. If the gaming part doesn't run a big OS they can avoid having it rooted within a few days like today's smartphones but still have all the advantages for everything else.
Android would be a no brainer for Sony. A partnership with google would be a match made in heaven.

 

[patsu]

A patent is supposed to be specific, and relates to a particular invention to solve a problem. If PS4 doesn't use different hardware architectures with a JIT compiler between CPU and the GPUs, this patent won't apply to it. Any discussion about PS4 featuring two GPUs can merrily ignore this patent for our uses, unless there's reason to think Sony will switch between low power and high power modes and want to use two different architectures (like PVR SGX and AMD Rxxxx).

Probably old use cases ?
What do they use for Vaio Z ? The more powerful GPU is across LightPeak PCI Express.
I imagined other Vaios can already switch between integrated and built-in discrete GPU.

What built-in GPU (if any) do Sony Smart TVs use ? May be it's to allow PS4 to plug into them in the future for their SEN vision.