Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[Cyan]

I believe fast bandwidth in consoles is a must, developers can do a lot of fancy things with fast bandwidth.
XBOX360 (VS PS3 released a year later) or PS2 (VS GC and XBOX1 released 2 years later) clearly demonstrated the advantages of such an approach (fast small memory + bigger slower RAM) with this solution developers would get the best of both worlds (bandwidth for specific tasks + big size of RAM for most tasks).

I think ps3 developers have 2 main problems : the limited bandwidth of the RSX + Insufficient size of RAM pool.
for xbox360, developers are struggling with only the second problem (they need more RAM).

in conclusion : different memory types for different tasks is a huge advantage for consoles. the only problem for next gen is how to give access to all these types of memory for all the processors ? thats a huge challenge....

Your post sparks fond memories of the current generation of consoles from when they were launched, and reminds me of my layman theory that when these consoles came out they were really capable, even compared to the PC.

Coincidentally enough, this more or less has just been confirmed by a developer, Cervat Yerli in a very recent interview. It gives some hope about how capable these new consoles will be too -this is a comment for Billy_Idol.

The current generation consoles, when they launched, were far ahead compared to PC," Yerli continued. "But PC has caught up. With current generation consoles and what's on the horizon – new ones – due to the fact that the cost of CPU and memory are so much more expensive than they were in the past, it is simply impossible to have the same kind of impact on the console business; to be so far ahead of PC.

Guys I am really enjoying the debate here, along with the new WiiU thread, I would love to participate more in general /not only in these two threads in particular/, but I hadn't gotten sick for a while, and ironically I am having anxiety issues due to RL which is demanding, a relationship and some other things going on as of currently. But I keep you in me head I just haven't reached what I want the world to see of me yet. Sorry for the OT. I will keep reading these wonderful, very interesting forums. I also love how everyone knows to keep a good tone. See yah'

 

[I.S.T.]

What interview is this?

 

[Cyan]

What interview is this?

Hi I.S.T. :smile: I know that's priority in B3D forums but I forgot to add the link. This is the interview:

Rising cost of memory and processors will impact next-gen specs - Crytek

http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/c...essors_will_impact_next-gen_specs_crytek.html

 

[jonabbey]

Something 'not going to be much more' than what Crytek is doing on current PC systems sounds pretty decent to me for next gen, honestly.

At this point I'm more curious about the software stack than the hardware.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Something 'not going to be much more' than what Crytek is doing on current PC systems sounds pretty decent to me for next gen, honestly.

At this point I'm more curious about the software stack than the hardware.

I would be happy with an engine such as Cry Engine 3 DX 11 last iteration with a good framerate and IQ as a base engine for next gen. It would be a huge step from the horrendous frame rates and IQs that plagued this gen. Not much more is necessary.

 

[DoctorFouad]

1080p, 60 fps, high rez GT5 is enough for me.
or Crysis 1, highest settings, 1080p, 60 fps, is also enough for me

I have doubts that next gen consoles could ever manage that...

 

[arijoytunir]

I would be happy with an engine such as Cry Engine 3 DX 11 last iteration with a good framerate and IQ as a base engine for next gen. It would be a huge step from the horrendous frame rates and IQs that plagued this gen. Not much more is necessary.

it may be stupid to ask ; what is the full form or meaning of IQ in games ?

 

[ERP]

which option is better for nxt gen consoles - fast small EDRAM + lots of slow ddr3 ram; or very fast ddr5 ram only ?

The short version is I don't know.
Depends how fast the gddr5 is and how big the fast small EDRAM pool is.
with PS2/XB360 the Framebuffer was the bulk of the bandwidth, I'm not sure that's true anymore with shaders doing double digit texture reads, but that in turn will be affected by the GPU texture cache.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

it may be stupid to ask ; what is the full form or meaning of IQ in games ?

Good AF, crispy textures and good AA -for me at least-.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

The short version is I don't know.
Depends how fast the gddr5 is and how big the fast small EDRAM pool is.
with PS2/XB360 the Framebuffer was the bulk of the bandwidth, I'm not sure that's true anymore with shaders doing double digit texture reads, but that in turn will be affected by the GPU texture cache.

Wasn´t RSX texture cache size the only customization made to the 7800 gt chip for PS3?.

 

[almighty]

Wasn´t RSX texture cache size the only customization made to the 7800 gt chip for PS3?.

They're were a few caches that also got some tweaking iirc

 

[onQ]

1080p, 60 fps, high rez GT5 is enough for me.
or Crysis 1, highest settings, 1080p, 60 fps, is also enough for me

I have doubts that next gen consoles could ever manage that...

What?

 

[pjbliverpool]

What are peoples thoughts on the PC's ability to keep up with next gen consoles on the memory front? PC's may have more main memory but it will be a fair bit slower than what's in the new consoles while the graphics memory will be faster but much smaller. How do people expect a PC with say 16GB main ram at 25.6GB/sec and 2GB graphics ram at 192 GB/sec to compare with a console of say 8GB at 64GB/sec + edram? Seems to me the PC would be at a severe disadvantage on the graphics memory front since you're really comparing 2GB with 8GB regardless of the relative speeds.

 

[jonabbey]

They're were a few caches that also got some tweaking iirc

And the Flexio memory interface.

 

[almighty]

What are peoples thoughts on the pcs ability to keep up with next gen consoles on the memory front? Pcs may have more main memory but it will be a fair bit slower than what's in the consoles while the graphics memory will faster but much smaller. How do people expect a pc with say 16GB main ram at 25.6GB/sec and 2GB graphics ram at 192 GB/sec to compare with a console of say 8GB at 64GB/sec + edram? Seems to me the pc would be at a severe advantage on the graphics memory front since your really comparing 2GB with 8GB regardless of the relative speeds.

Memory bandwidth is not completely dependent on the memory itself but by the memory controller, you only have to look at the PC processors to see what I'm talking about, If you give both an AMD FX series CPU and an Intel Sandy/Ivy level CPU the same memory the Intel chips will have ~10Gb/s more bandwidth then the AMD chips because they have a much better memory controller. If the next generation are using AMD based CPU's then I wouldn't bet on DDR4 support at all as AMD have not even talked about it in the PC space yet, Intel have been the ones doing all the talking.

In terms of graphics bandwidth they will each have one up over each other, console would in theory have more bandwidth for the frame buffer ( Depending of course how the EDRAM is implemented ) while PC will have much more bandwidth to local memory, the EDRAM in 360 offered a stupid amount of bandwidth but 360 could not saturate it with the hardware that it had so for the most part the bandwidth the EDRAM did offer lay dormant, PC on the other hand does have hardware that can make use of the extra bandwidth available to it.

PS3 doesn't have EDRAM and yet its exclusive games are easily keeping up with anything 360 can muster so is EDRAM bandwidth really all it's cracked up to be?

 

[jonabbey]

I assume many have already seen this, but CVG/XBox World has a nice write up that summarizes a lot of the previously available rumors about the next XBox.

I like the speculation about MS using onlive-like tech to let the next XBox display on any screen you've got in the house at any time. I've been hoping that Sony would do something similar with their Gakai acquistion.

 

[ERP]

PS3 doesn't have EDRAM and yet its exclusive games are easily keeping up with anything 360 can muster so is EDRAM bandwidth really all it's cracked up to be?

How does an exclusive game prove anything, what are you comparing it to?
How do you know it wouldn't have been better on the other platform?

360 has a fill advantage because of the EDRAM, transparencies are for intents and purposes "free".
The 360 EDRAM has exactly enough bandwidth to not constrain any other part of the GPU, any less and the GPU would run slower.

The PS3 GPU has enough bandwidth to certainly be competitive in none AA situations.

 

[almighty]

How does an exclusive game prove anything, what are you comparing it to?

Are you suggesting that we use multi-platform games to show each machine at there best?

And what do you meen by 'PS3 GPU has enough bandwidth to certainly be competitive in none AA situations'

 

[ERP]

Are you suggesting that we use multi-platform games to show each machine at there best?

And what do you meen by 'PS3 GPU has enough bandwidth to certainly be competitive in none AA situations'

I'm saying you can't draw conclusions from looking at a game that exists only on one platform. How much of what you covet is the art? how do you distinguish?

You can't even draw much of a conclusion from a single game that exists on multiple platforms, you can draw some conclusions from trends in multiplatform games, and you can draw some from consistent compromises between SKU's.

For example I would GUESS that WiiU has 8 ROPS and similar or less bandwidth to EDRAM than 360 because all of the ports run at the same resolution, and it would be trivial to run at higher resolution if one of those things wasn't gating performance.

The bandwidth RSX has to VRAM is a significant percentage of the 360 bandwidth to EDRAM if you exclude the bandwidth the ROPS have to it. That ROP bandwidth is only used for MSAA. RSX also has bandwidth saving features to further close that gap, but in general it will have less fill than the 360 GPU.
As I said it's competitive.

 

[almighty]

The bandwidth RSX has to VRAM is a significant percentage of the 360 bandwidth to EDRAM if you exclude the bandwidth the ROPS have to it. That ROP bandwidth is only used for MSAA. RSX also has bandwidth saving features to further close that gap, but in general it will have less fill than the 360 GPU.
As I said it's competitive.

But then RSX has more bandwidth to RAM as it has to buses feeding it, you also have the down side of EDRAM as well, which you've failed to list.

personally I feel that the EDRAM in 360 was a complete waste of time, it's just too damn small.

Maybe if it was implemented like PS2's EDRAM was and allow frame buffer and assets to be stored it would of been a better option but it's essentially nothing more then a scratch pad which over the years has been the cause for many a game to run below 720p due it only being 10mb.

And with the industry focusing heavily on post process AA and moving away from bandwidth and memory heavy MSAA would EDRAM even be useful next gen?

By using the post process AA they drastically reduce the bandwidth consumption and thus make the high bandwidth advantage of EDRAM for the most part, redundant.