Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[function]

I'll keep this as brief as possible because it's OT and because these points have already been hammered out in the appropriate thread.

There also launching with a cheaper lower powered box against 2 already HD competitors.

Not really got anything to do with BC. Wii stuff looks ancient compared to the PS360 and Nintendo know it's still important to manage transitions.

-I've been a live subscriber since 2005, I've never paid more than $40. I also really don't think halo or live really carried the 360 for the first year.

That's great for you, but again not really relevant. [Edit] $40 is really good though, it's tough to get a deal like that in the UK[/Edit]

This isn't going to be a transition like xbox to 360. The 360 isn't going anywhere with a new product launch.

If you can't keep a 360 as the home device for 360 content then your content isn't safe.

Live can be strong without BC, just make sure you have some solid launch titles.

Live will be stronger with it during the transition period, just as any social network would be.

cuz why?

cuz the spend on downloaded content is going to grow, and cuz the number of online gamers will continue to increase. If you want people to trust you enough to buy digital content from you (like people trust Steam) you need to be trustworthy with the digital content that people buy from you.

Not run into a problem with Steam yet where it's told me I can't use a game because I bought it on my last PC, or laptop...

Live is a more important platform than any one console, IMO.

 

[function]

managed code : doesn't that make processor architecture even more irrelevant than with C/C++?

Yeah. You have no ability to manage memory for instance, which means no pointers or pointer arithmetic, or memory leaks. Now I'm used to it, I like it. I'm not the greatest programmer though so there are probably better people to ask.

I was under the impression that the .net CLR and the Java virtual machine weren't quite the same kind of thing, but Wikipedia is suggesting I'm wrong (if I'm reading it rite).

In XNA (which uses C# and some .net libraries) there are differences in what you can do on the three supported platforms. The 360 and Windows version do let you use pixel shaders, for example. And the PC version allows (or allowed) you to directly access the machines filesystem.

It's pretty good that you can write code once that'll run well on all three platforms. Seems like a good use of some of that processing power to me.

 

[hoho]

Yeah. You have no ability to manage memory for instance, which means no pointers or pointer arithmetic, or memory leaks.

With half-decent RAII you won't be leaking memory in C++ either and it isn't hard to use. Also, can any virtual machine handle deleting a circular linked list?

It's pretty good that you can write code once that'll run well on all three platforms. Seems like a good use of some of that processing power to me.

It is possible to write code once and have it be recomplied for several platforms as well on a compiled language as long as you are using decent cross-platform libraries instead of going too close to metal.

Basically I can't really see much use in using managed code on consoles, at least not as the primary/only way of doing things.

 

[function]

With half-decent RAII you won't be leaking memory in C++ either and it isn't hard to use. Also, can any virtual machine handle deleting a circular linked list?

It speaks volumes about me as a programmer that I hadn't come across the term RAII before! That's actually kind of what I tried to do, I'd allocate in a constructor and delete in a destructor, writing the delete as soon as I'd finished the new. Never had much of a problem with memory leaks (aside from occasions when I was rushing like a fool, allocating on the spot and not testing everything as I wrote it) and I liked using multiple levels of indirection, but I don't really miss it in C#.

It is possible to write code once and have it be recomplied for several platforms as well on a compiled language as long as you are using decent cross-platform libraries instead of going too close to metal.

I never used decent cross-platform libraries. I only did stuff on the PC and tended to use my own "libraries".

Basically I can't really see much use in using managed code on consoles, at least not as the primary/only way of doing things.

If you wanted to force people to support Windows 8 Arm gaming it might have some value ...

Other than that I guess it's mostly a security thing, particularly when you're opening your platform up to the masses.

 

[hoho]

I'd allocate in a constructor and delete in a destructor, writing the delete as soon as I'd finished the new

Check out smart pointers as well, they make life even more simple

I never used decent cross-platform libraries.

I haven't done much cross-platform game programming but I have written plenty of stuff that has to work on windows/linux and various phone OS'es. For that kind of stuff QT has been pure awesomeness. Luckily I haven't had to support iOS so far and QT works on everything else that's relevant. Except for linked libraries I haven't had to change anything in build files or code, no platform-specific #ifdefs or anything. It just works

One place where I can see room for fully managed code being used together with some higher-level APIs are the live arcade games. Those most likely don't need low-level access to HW to do their stuff. That would also mean they would become easily portable across future consoles and perhaps even to phones.

 

[pjbliverpool]

And besides that, unless Sony goes X86 it wont help either,. You still likely have to port your game to their console too.

From a MS point of view this seems like a pretty good reason to go X86 and merge PC and 360 development as much as possible. i.e. marginalising Sony.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I am just assuming that if you were building the hardware you wouldn't use such hyperbole if the chip was weak or low to mid range.

Even by todays PC standards an custom Fusion Chip from late 2013 wouldn't have to be weak or low/mid range.

But by current console standards (which is likely what they were considering anyway) it will still be insanely more powerful.

 

[Lightman]

In case you have missed it:

Thomas Seifert: "Our graphics IP and Fusion APUs are a great match for the next generation of media-rich consoles. We have an opportunity to increase the amount of AMD silicon shipped in this market by delivering customized Fusion silicon, significantly expanding the TAM for our APUs and serving as a strategic beach hats to drive APUs into adjacent market segments."

Source: Seeking Alpha

Planets and start are lining up to one conclusion. End of the world is coming! I mean x86 to the consoles is coming ...

 

[AlNom]

End of the world is coming! I mean x86 to the consoles is coming ...

"Returning"

 

[Rangers]

In case you have missed it:

Source: Seeking Alpha

Planets and start are lining up to one conclusion. End of the world is coming! I mean x86 to the consoles is coming ...

Hmm, now that's actually something credible.

Still with the various rumors, it could mean either or both Sony and MS. For example, the rumor of 20 million PS4's in 2012...

I dont really like it, unless they can deliver something really beefy. Arent their large performance benefits to having CPU+GPU on the same die though? Perhaps that can offset some of the missing muscle.

I still think AMD CPU's are too beefy for console work, so maybe it is a custom chip, mostly a GPU, with a couple or few slimmed down CPU cores as the minority of the die.

I'm still just pretty skeptical though, it just doesnt make a lot of sense. There's no benefit to X86 in console.

Breaking down the qoute very carefully, couple things stand out. One

Our graphics IP and Fusion APUs are a great match for the next generation of media-rich consoles.

They specifically say graphics IP AND Fusion APU's. So I think that could mean the possibility of a fusion and a discrete GPU.

We have an opportunity to increase the amount of AMD silicon shipped in this market by delivering customized Fusion silicon, significantly expanding the TAM for our APUs and serving as a strategic beach hats to drive APUs into adjacent market segments.

Customized is an interesting word there. I hope this means "much higher performance" in essence.

I googled the acronym TAM because I didn't know what it means, it would seem to mean "Total Addressable Market".

 

[AlNom]

I dont really like it, unless they can deliver something really beefy. Arent their large performance benefits to having CPU+GPU on the same die though? Perhaps that can offset some of the missing muscle.

Might want to look through this: http://developer.amd.com/documentation/presentations/assets/Phil%20Rogers%20Keynote-FINAL.pdf

Another example is Sandy Bridge. The GPU benefits a great deal by using the CPU cache, not that the absolute Intel GPU perf is something to write home about, but we're mainly concerned about potential here anyway.

Another interesting presentation to have a look at:
http://developer.amd.com/afds/assets/keynotes/4-Sutter_Microsoft-FINAL.pdf

They specifically say graphics IP AND Fusion APU's. So I think that could mean the possibility of a fusion and a discrete GPU.

It could just as easily mean that one of the consoles is only tapping them for the GPU. It could also mean the other console is tapping them for just the APU.

Customized is an interesting word there. I hope this means "much higher performance" in essence.

Or just "not off-the-shelf". Let's not put words into their mouths. "Customized" doesn't actually imply anything about performance.

 

[Lightman]

"Returning"

Thanks for remanding me world has ended before :smile: (Xbox).

PS. 12000th post AI The force is strong in you!

 

[Rangers]

The other thing this brings to mind if it's for Microsoft, is I read a rumor somewhere a while back that there was internal debate whether to lose money at launch on the next gen Xbox hardware or not.

If so, I have to wonder if this means the decision was "not".

 

[AlNom]

The other thing this brings to mind if it's for Microsoft, is I read a rumor somewhere a while back that there was internal debate whether to lose money at launch on the next gen Xbox hardware or not.

If so, I have to wonder if this means the decision was "not".

On which SKU?

PS. 12000th post AI The force is strong in you!

Stopped paying attention after 9000.

 

[RudeCurve]

There's no benefit to X86 in console.

There are lots of benefits. The first that comes to mind is having a "gaming console" able to function as a "closed PC".

I remember with the original Xbox, MS didn't want people to call it a PC even though the internals were basically 95% PC. At the time they wanted to position it as a dedicated games console so it would be better accepted and to gain "credibility".

Over a decade later after proving themselves in the console market, they're ready to transition over to a console/PC hybrid model. Makes sense if you plan on offering dual functionality in your next generation X box.

 

[Rangers]

The Xbox 30 can function as a "closed PC" now.

Also, there's no indication why MS would want that. If anything the manufacturers tend to keep the consoles highly walled off. You dont even get a browser on the 360 (let me guess, X86 is needed for a browser?). There's no reason except strategy that there's no browser on 360. Microsoft wants it to be a closed box.

You need to be more specific exactly what you mean, rather than sweeping general statements.

What would X86 allow that is no possible now in a console? Specifically.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I'm still just pretty skeptical though, it just doesnt make a lot of sense. There's no benefit to X86 in console.

Aside from them being the fastest and easiest to programme CPU's availanle today. I'd have said raw speed and ease of development are prettybig benefits.

Customized is an interesting word there. I hope this means "much higher performance" in essence.

Than what? We have no idea what a high end Fusion chip from late 2013 will look like. It's never going to equal discrete solutions of the day regardless of how customised it is but it could come close to todays high end discrete solutions.

That said, I'd have thought much of the customisation will be around the memory architecture. That's where APU's fall down in the PC so a high speed memory bus and maybe some edram could make a big difference for a console implementation.

True though that they may also change the balance of CPU to GPU transisitors to favour the GPU. Of course while that means higher GPU performance than APU's of the day it will mean lower CPU performance.

 

[pjbliverpool]

The Xbox 30 can function as a "closed PC" now.

As far as I'm aware Windows doesn't run on PPC yet.

What would X86 allow that is no possible now in a console? Specifically..

1. The ability to run Windows
2. Ease of cross platform development between PC and Xbox Next - edging out Sony
3. General ease of development thanks to the forgiving architecture itself and developers familiarity with it
4. Greater performance

 

[Rangers]

As far as I'm aware Windows doesn't run on PPC yet.

1. The ability to run Windows
2. Ease of cross platform development between PC and Xbox Next - edging out Sony
3. General ease of development thanks to the forgiving architecture itself and developers familiarity with it
4. Greater performance

#1- Why would you want to run Windows on a console? To get viruses?
#2, they already have that one locked down.
#3-ditto
#4 ? It would seem to mean lesser performance.

Than what? We have no idea what a high end Fusion chip from late 2013 will look like. It's never going to equal discrete solutions of the day regardless of how customised it is but it could come close to todays high end discrete solutions.

Exactly

So many people seem hung up on "well, it'll blow away what they have now!" Big deal, that misses the point. An IGP can blow away what they have now. Would you have rather they put a 2005 IGP in the Xbox 360 and/or PS3? It's the exact same thing. They would be out of the console business if they had.

Even somebody on another forum used this logic "well PS3 uses a piece of crap lowly 7800GT, and it seems to do just fine" as justification for using a low end part in next gen. Dont they get that what they're asking though would be the equivalent of Ps3 using an IGP from 2006?

 

[Sonic]

As far as I'm aware Windows doesn't run on PPC yet.

1. The ability to run Windows
2. Ease of cross platform development between PC and Xbox Next - edging out Sony
3. General ease of development thanks to the forgiving architecture itself and developers familiarity with it
4. Greater performance

1. Microsoft has had version of Windows running under PowerPC before, there's no reason they can't do it now. They're getting Win 8 to work with ARM, it is not that far of a stretch to getting to run under PPC.

2. They already have an edge against Sony with ports to PC architecture. They own Windows. Advantage Microsoft's' Though going with x86 will make that advantage far wider and better, and would allow easier development.

3. Goes with 2 I guess.

4. Not so sure about the greater performance. A cut down Power 7 doesn't look too bad if IBM put some effort into it. It would allow for backwards compatibility, from the CPU side, and that would be one bonus. At the same time do they wish to shell out the money to IBM to get a new customized Power processor remains to be seen.

Going with x86 seems like a no brainer to me if they manage to use a CPU with decent performance, low power consumption (not Wii or even WiiU low), and an already proven manufacturing process and you know plenty of chips will be available.




I'd like to see a quad core CPU with graphics processors, and also a discrete GPU that could really be used for the heavy graphics.