Post Xbox One Two Scorpio, what should Sony do next? *spawn* (oh, and Nintendo?)

[Scott_Arm]

I think that's the better choice. The vast majority of gamers will likely have 1080p sets, and would rather have 1080p games in better quality/framerate than current quality at 4K (downsampled to 1080p). If Scoprio games are XB1 games at 4K, I think interest will be muted. However, if Scorpio games have 1080p modes that render in better visuals, it'd offer far broader appeal. Basically, is it a PC with settings (even if 1080p or 4K options in games) or a 4K XB1? Regardless, it's the 1080p market that these machines probably need to appeal to, and the one that does that best (ignoring current market share etc) is probably the one that'll sell most.

Sony's statements so far have already been pushing it as a 4k machine for hardcore gamers who want 4k content, and that you won't get "the most" out of the machine without a 4k tv.

Also, what you're suggesting is a terrible idea and probably won't happen. If they make the game look great at 1080p, then you really can't make an option for a higher resolution or 4k, especially if you call that option 4k. The only way to do it will be visual tradeoffs and 4k owners will be pissed that their game ends up looking worse at 4k. If they go 1080p it's best to just let the game run at 1080p and scale to 4k since it scales perfectly.

If they want to target higher resolution (which will never be 4k on Neo or Scorpio, not without some clever temporal reconstruction or upscaled rendering), then they'll have that one render path and let it downscale for 1080p sets.

Edit: Another way to look at it is that if Neo renders at 1080p, I think it'll be hard to distinguish itself visually without pushing the PS4 version down. You could get into this situation where it's like comparing a pc game at Ultra settings to one that has a mix of High/medium settings, and to the average gamer it's really not that noticeable, but they dropped $500 on a Neo and feel like they got ripped off. One way to create some separation in the visuals would be to lower the PS4 versions of the games to 900p or 720p, but then PS4 gamers will be pissed that their average gaming experience has been compromised by Neo.

Best case is PS4 at 900p or 1080p and Neo being marketed for 4k and running with some kind of upscaling.

 

[trainplane]

Despite what MS says, I think Scorpio will be 4K in the same way XBox One was 1080p, which is to say, barely. The next gen games would probably look better if they used the extra power and went balls to the walls on 1080p but having to support the old versions limits that. I'd love to see for instance a Scorpio version of a game add GI but that's probably not feasible from a development perspective.

I think the real 4K won't come until 2020-ish when XBox Sagittarius and Playstation Geo can bring sufficient amounts of HBM2, like 24 or 32 GB at 1 TB/s. If we can get good capacity on HBM2 at a decent price to fit in a console, that's probably the next technological inflection point Phil Spencer was talking about. But please, please, put a decent CPU in the 2020 consoles. I want AI to be more complex and human like instead of just better looking robots.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'm not that excited about 4k at all. I'd prefer better graphics at 1080p as well. HDR is a lot more interesting to me, but it seems like most HDR displays are also 4k, so I'll probably end up getting 4k anyway. It'll be a couple of years, probably.

 

[Cyan]

Despite what MS says, I think Scorpio will be 4K in the same way XBox One was 1080p, which is to say, barely. The next gen games would probably look better if they used the extra power and went balls to the walls on 1080p but having to support the old versions limits that. I'd love to see for instance a Scorpio version of a game add GI but that's probably not feasible from a development perspective.

I think the real 4K won't come until 2020-ish when XBox Sagittarius and Playstation Geo can bring sufficient amounts of HBM2, like 24 or 32 GB at 1 TB/s. If we can get good capacity on HBM2 at a decent price to fit in a console, that's probably the next technological inflection point Phil Spencer was talking about. But please, please, put a decent CPU in the 2020 consoles. I want AI to be more complex and human like instead of just better looking robots.

AI is the future in most games, I think. I mean, online is perfect but having a great AI when no one is around as a partner is surely a challenge.

Whatever the future, Neo and Scorpio confirm this has been the worst generation in the history of consoles. No consoles has lasted more than 4 years, not so interesting exclusives like in the past generation. Plus lots of remakes and refried games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Also, what you're suggesting is a terrible idea and probably won't happen. If they make the game look great at 1080p, then you really can't make an option for a higher resolution or 4k, especially if you call that option 4k. The only way to do it will be visual tradeoffs and 4k owners will be pissed that their game ends up looking worse at 4k. If they go 1080p it's best to just let the game run at 1080p and scale to 4k since it scales perfectly.

I think that's the console design with the bigger market. Let's be honest - is Neo fast enough to provide PS4 quality at 4K? Not really. So the notion of it being a PS4K seems unlikely. PS4-60fps version, it can certainly be. As a high-end console for gamers, a 1080p box is much better.

Edit: Another way to look at it is that if Neo renders at 1080p, I think it'll be hard to distinguish itself visually without pushing the PS4 version down.

Solid 60fps versus PS4 30fps is all the hardcore gamer would need. And Sony would sell a lot more of those consoles than PS4Ks barely managing 4K sold to 4K TV owners, IMHO.

Edit: Also, certainly for MS who are bringing XB games to Windows, so basically XB games will be a flavour of the Windows game, the games could come with settings for players to choose how they want to play, as this won't be more work for devs who are already doing that for PC. Just port the PC verbatim with the same settings (maybe dumbed down into 4K30, 1080p30 and 1080p60 modes as these can be profiled and targeted on fixed hardware) and let the players decide. That way Neo and Scorpio will have relevance to the widest possible market.

 

[AlNom]

I'm not that excited about 4k at all. I'd prefer better graphics at 1080p as well.

It's gonna be higher PC settings essentially.


.... except for AF.

 

[zupallinere]

I don´t think it is like this for two reasons, first those clocks are for dGPUs not apus with limited TDP and of course the integrated cores. (480 is rated at 150w max), yes I know they could raise the TDP of the system, going back to ps360 era. And the second reason, why holidays 2017? if its based on Polaris, It could be here much sooner

That´s how I see it.

On a side note, they didn´t disclose CPU family or RAM amount, just in case, the cpu could be another reason of the delay

Well there IS going to be a whole new memory organization for the Scorpio along with other issues that will come up in terms of compatibility and such so a suggestion of Holiday 2017 with a decent amount of profit for each machine seems pretty reasonable.

 

[trainplane]

AI is the future in most games, I think. I mean, online is perfect but having a great AI when no one is around as a partner is surely a challenge..

I mostly play open world games now and one of the first things that is really noticable after a few hours is just how limited and dumb the AI is. I mean forget the Turing test. They can't even outsmart Turing's dog. That breaks the immersion more than many other aspects of games.

Whatever the future, Neo and Scorpio confirm this has been the worst generation in the history of consoles. No consoles has lasted more than 4 years, not so interesting exclusives like in the past generation. Plus lots of remakes and refried games.

With games now being multi-generational, maybe the refried games trend will be gone.

Nah, these companies will figure out a way.

 

[Michellstar]

Well there IS going to be a whole new memory organization for the Scorpio along with other issues that will come up in terms of compatibility and such so a suggestion of Holiday 2017 with a decent amount of profit for each machine seems pretty reasonable.

Well, It could be really it.
I suppose the work involved making work One games into Scorpio will be harder than PS4 on Neo, especially if they change memory and ditch ESRAM, and of course if they change the CPUs.
Will they patch current games?? Will they run a Virtual ONE inside Scorpio?

They have to get a smooth transition between their ecosystem, PC, Scorpio, and the ONE.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The talk about Sony redesigning Neo is as dumb as the talk about Microsoft re-specing Xbox One once it and PS4's specs were known. It's fanboy fantasy and utter nonsense.

Then you should e-mail Microsoft telling them they have their console specs wrong. Their GPU is probably working at 800MHz and CPU at 1600MHz.
Their post-announcement 9.4% CPU and 6.6% GPU upclocks done to production hardware must be fanboy fantasy and utter nonsense.
And their engineers' discussion about what clocks could be achieved must have been dumb as hell.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Will they patch current games?? Will they run a Virtual ONE inside Scorpio?

This is not a problem I would personally relish but Microsoft have been delivering solid compatibility through API, binary and virtualisation for years.

 

[zupallinere]

Taking everyone at their word for the moment I can see Sony looking at PS4K as merely a "premium" product with eye towards a bigger profit margin to sop up some more money that may be on the table. I mean Playstation brand is the most popular and likely profitable Sony endeavour at least from a consumer standpoint so they have to think about increasing profits from that arm of the company and a premium product can do that. It also gives Sony a chance to market UHD material and TVs and maaaybe do something about their wireless situation although we should have likely seen some FCC filings for an updated wifi spec by now or very soon I assume.

Sony was already investing in VR early on and their solution and pricing reflects that. It won't be the BEST VR solution but it may be enough to get their product into the hands of enough consumers to start to driving things forward on that front for developers to see a way to make some money with it.

Price is the only thing that is important at this point for Sony at this point so I think they want a sub $299 PS4 and I think a $150 plus premium for the PS4k because the apparent value of both consoles must be maintained. If you price the PS4K too low you lose profits you are hoping will boost quarterly earnings in 2017 and you damage the "value" of the $349 PS4 ( adjust as needed for the majority of the world outside the cozy confines of the US ) that is being bought today. Folks will make their determinations one way or the other individually but Sony is looking to sell a narrative of value over time for their ecosystem and platform and they have to be mindful of managing that narrative. Whether or not you get 4.4 TFLOPS within the next 6 months isn't as much of an issue as keeping up the financial momentum for the Playstation brand at Sony.

MS has a different set of concerns and interests and their design and pricing needs to be taken into account WRT their multifaceted ecosystem/platform and while they specifically aren't saying much about Scorpio and VR depending on how things go with VR in the next year or so we may see another story from them about VR and what the Scorpio can do with say a $499 Scorpio Rift or something like that.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I think the real 4K won't come until 2020-ish when XBox Sagittarius and Playstation Geo can bring sufficient amounts of HBM2, like 24 or 32 GB at 1 TB/s.

So you're saying we'll have real 4K consoles by the time we have widespread 8K TVs in the market?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Well, It could be really it.
I suppose the work involved making work One games into Scorpio will be harder than PS4 on Neo, especially if they change memory and ditch ESRAM, and of course if they change the CPUs.
Will they patch current games?? Will they run a Virtual ONE inside Scorpio?

They have to get a smooth transition between their ecosystem, PC, Scorpio, and the ONE.

Sounds like the plan is to use UWP, so the Scorpio version will probably basically be the PC version. So I'd expect they'd have code for Xbox One and then code for Scorpio/PC. Obviously that's incredibly simplified, but roughly how it would be.

 

[zupallinere]

Then you should e-mail Microsoft telling them they have their console specs wrong. Their GPU is probably working at 800MHz and CPU at 1600MHz.
Their post-announcement 9.4% CPU and 6.6% GPU upclocks done to production hardware must be fanboy fantasy and utter nonsense.
And their engineers' discussion about what clocks could be achieved must have been dumb as hell.

Wasn't MS just taking advantage of an over-engineered cooling solution with that ?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Wasn't MS just taking advantage of an over-engineered cooling solution with that ?

So if Microsoft does it, it's called "taking advantage of over-engineered components" but if someone suggests Sony could do it, it's "nonsense"?

 

[zupallinere]

Th

Will they run a Virtual ONE inside Scorpio?
.

I am sure they are hoping to since virtualization was something of a big deal for the XB1.

 

[zupallinere]

It will be interesting to see where the Scorpio ends up with for a memory controller and how things might change for say ACE queues and the like.

So if Microsoft does it, it's called "taking advantage of over-engineered components" but if someone suggests Sony could do it, it's "nonsense"?

not that I am aware of but I don't think the PS4K is going to have over-engineered cooling unless they are trying to hit some very low noise numbers for "Premium" reasons.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

So if Microsoft does it, it's called "taking advantage of over-engineered components" but if someone suggests Sony could do it, it's "nonsense"?

Microsoft leveraged whatever 'wiggle room' they had to upclock their chips, which worked well. And by worked well, we've not seen Xbox failures resulting for overlooking and Xbox One had more CPU performance than PS4 and the processors is arguably the biggest bottleneck in today's consoles. But if you cast your mind back, or just go and read the thread, people was suggesting it was viable for Microsoft to re-wrok the APU and add more CUs or change the memory.

If Sony do the same, they are not redesigning their system, they're leveraging some of the same overclocking envelope. They are not redesigning their system. When I overlock my Skylake i7 from 4Ghz (stock) to 4.4Ghz I'm not redesigning my system. I take your point, but I remember the ambitious suggestions and it's this what I'm referring too.

 

[3dilettante]

I wouldn't really call it overclocking, either. Durango's clock change was a modest adjustment to their binning of manufactured chips.
There were some statements to the effect that after they had characterized the results of final production, they found they could meet their power and yield targets sufficiently at the higher clocks.
There should have been some amount of slack across most parts of the system, and while it is possible there was some decrease in candidate dies, it apparently wasn't enough to make the overall yield fall below what Microsoft had considered satisfactory.