Possibilities for DS3
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Sis said:
I agree with you here. I rather keep the rumble feature than tilt and pan feature. I think the warhawk demo was just silly. Who would want to fly a plane using a that form of sensor? Most planes I know of use a stick. So this gyro sensor is a step back for flight sims.
Now Shifty Geezer (I think it's him) suggested using it to control the camera, and I think that's a brillant idea. The dev that decided to use the gyro to control the plane must has put in too many hours to clearly think it through.
However loosing the rumble is a big let down. Sony should have bite the bullet and pay up the licensing fee for it. Think of all the gamers you're letting down. Sure add the tilt, but don't lose the rumble.
edit: Someone should make a gyro head band...I think that would be ideal for controlling the camera...
Thing is, I really can't see the word "useful" being used for rumble tech in any game. An appreciative enhancement, sure... but "useful"?NANOTEC said:
I'd rather retain it, sure, but if there is actually a trade-off... I'll take the feature that seems to have lots more function and headroom. (But I still think it had more to do with Sony's court fights and patent woes and not having enough of an alternative rumble-wise in time.)
Now we just hope the sensitivity is there. ESPECIALLY since they sacrificed a feature to put it in.
Meanwhile on the functionality... it effectively turns your whole hand into a giant super-analog controller, so why NOT use it for flight sims? IMHO flying games and racing games (where you turn your controller like a wheel) would be perfectly natural and the games to take the most advantage of it quickly and easily.
(Of course, as with my complaints regarding Revolution, they'd better not force you to use motion-sensing as your ONLY control option... People don't want to whip around or twist a controller all day. It'll simply become obnoxious.)
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It's useful in augmenting the level of immersion, like sound is useful, like vision is useful. Wouldn't it be funny if games had no sound? So sound is usefull. We can sit here and argue semantics all day but it doesn't really achieve anything just circular nonsense.
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Yes. It's just as important as vision and hearing, obviously.
Why in hell don't we have rumble packs for watching TV yet?
Why in hell don't we have rumble packs for watching TV yet?
cthellis42 said:Yes. It's just as important as vision and hearing, obviously.
I guess your opinion is tilt and pan is as important as vision and hearing?
I don't think anyone is saying rumble is that important. However, to say it's not useful is short selling it a bit.
Here we have sight and sound. Rumble adds another dimension, so why take it away? When your car hits a curve, you feel it. When a bullet hits you, you feel it. Does the pan and tilt offers something that cannot be amended with addons? Such as steering wheel, head tracking with EyeToy or maybe pan and tilt senor on a headband.
I'm not against pan and tilt, but at a cost of rumble...not sure it's worth the trade.
I think the ability to toggle this feature in game is a great idea. Imagine you hold R2 screw with the camera using this feature then release R2. This is far from a gimmick, before the camera might have took up a entire analog stick or even both. The DS2 controller feels similar to a steering wheel so racing games may work quite well. In RPGs you usually have lots of different actions you need to perform. Toggling this motion sensing mode may allow for a order of magnitude more "buttons". These buttons would involve both movement and button presses. I can also imagine mouse/cursor movement working better with this feature than with analog sticks. The biggest problem analog sticks have in this area is they gradually stop and start as apposed to stopping instantly. They also have smaller range of movement.
It might be possible in the future there'd be a new PS3 gyro controller with and added force feedback that was done with the gyroscopes that counteract the player movements with rotational force.
Something like that was rumored to be in the "Revolution" controller before it was confirmed to bee the wiimote, but I think it'd be a bit too expensive at least to be put there at launch.
Slightly off-topic and bordering against the forum rules (mods, please note me if so), but who wants to bet that the xbox360 will soon have similar gyro controller available to replace the exisiting one like the S-model replaced the original xbox controller. I'd say at next E3 we'll see one and Halo3 being one of the game sthat have extensive support for it
Something like that was rumored to be in the "Revolution" controller before it was confirmed to bee the wiimote, but I think it'd be a bit too expensive at least to be put there at launch.
Slightly off-topic and bordering against the forum rules (mods, please note me if so), but who wants to bet that the xbox360 will soon have similar gyro controller available to replace the exisiting one like the S-model replaced the original xbox controller. I'd say at next E3 we'll see one and Halo3 being one of the game sthat have extensive support for it
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TrungGap said:I guess your opinion is tilt and pan is as important as vision and hearing?
I don't think anyone is saying rumble is that important. However, to say it's not useful is short selling it a bit.
Here we have sight and sound. Rumble adds another dimension, so why take it away? When your car hits a curve, you feel it. When a bullet hits you, you feel it. Does the pan and tilt offers something that cannot be amended with addons? Such as steering wheel, head tracking with EyeToy or maybe pan and tilt senor on a headband.
I'm not against pan and tilt, but at a cost of rumble...not sure it's worth the trade.
Exactly.
cthellis42 said:Yes. It's just as important as vision and hearing, obviously.
Why in hell don't we have rumble packs for watching TV yet?
Actually some of us do, it's called a subwoofer in a HT system. When watching movies it makes it more immersive because you can feel the explosions, crashes instead of just hearing it. It makes more real. Now how come we don't have tvs that tilt for movies?
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PS3 has 5.1 surround sound (for all games?) just hook it up to your HT system and enjoy the "rumble".
True, not every PS3 user has subwoofer, but that's their loss.
TV is not a control device, why should it tilt??
I make no sense
True, not every PS3 user has subwoofer, but that's their loss.
TV is not a control device, why should it tilt??
I make no sense
We've had rumble discussion on the patent debates. Personally I know of only two games where it's been useful. Driver, where it told you a cop was nearby, and racers where you hit the rumble strip. In every other situation I know, it corresponds to a visual queue and provides nothing extra to the game. It serves a redundant purpose. The rest of the game uses visual and audio elements to communicate exactly the same info as the rumble, so what good is it? It's not realistic, it doesn't add to immersion, in my experience. What does Rumble provide in these games not covered by the graphics and audio?...TrungGap said:
Hack-n-slash
Soccer
Platformer
Turn based RPG
Fantasy real-time RPG
RTS
Puzzle game
Party game
Whereas I know plenty of people who move the controller around when playing games, and harnessing that movement makes sense - it's the very basis of Nintendo's console! The Tilt mechanism should provide the equivalent of a third analogue stick. Any game that controls the camera on the right stick so you have to remove your hand from the action buttons to change camera, is going to benefit from this I think.
Replacing an occassional shake of the controller with some more input options, especially intuitive options that work with existing methods and don't need even more convoluted finger motions to harness, has got to be a good choice!
Well, by this reasoning, we could do away with most audio from games, since it's redundant.Shifty Geezer said:
I've always said that rumble is a critical tactile feedback mechanism, and probably in very subconcious ways. I do not think the immersion argument is as strong, since "rumbling" is such a rudimentary aspect. However, I definitely notice the lack of rumble going from console to PC. I have trouble distinguishing if my gun is firing, if I'm being struck, and other little details that get lost in the heat of battle when visual and audio can become overloaded.
In FPSs, yes, and racers, but what about other genres? Extra control or different control can find it's way to into many situations, whereas the usefulness of rumble feedback is fairly limited in scope. Take my list of other genres, and add what you think rumble can contribute above and beyond what's obvious with audio and visual cues. This is what I can come up with off the top of my head :
FPS
- Warning when taking damage when not obvious
Racer
- Warning of collisions or leaving track, rumble strip
Hack-n-slash
- When you're getting low on health as a warning, save you looking up at the health bar
Soccer
Platformer
Turn based RPG
Fantasy real-time RPG
RTS
- Alert to bring your attention to some else on the battlefield other than where you're looking, such as base is being attacked.
Puzzle game
- Warning for time running low
Party game
As you see, I haven't done very well! And some of those can be easily accomodated by on screen windows or audio alerts. It won't have the urgency of the rumble, for sure, but the purpose of the rumble in these cases can be provided by other methods, such as a warning sound for puzzlers or RTS, a red flash on the screen when you're taking damage in an FPS.
Now if I think what tilt control could add to these genres that cannot be satisified with DS2 and rumble :
FPS
- Camera control, extra player movements, keeping hands on movement and attack buttons
Racer
- Camera control, freelook, (semi) intuitive stearing alternative
Hack-n-slash
- Camera control keeping hands on movement and attack buttons
Soccer
- Camera control in 1 player. Intuitive player shimmying/maneouvring control.
Platformer
- Motion based control without using sticks at all
Turn based RPG
Fantasy real-time RPG
- Camera control, extra player movements, keeping hands on movement and attack buttons
RTS
- Map/camera control
Puzzle game
- Motion based puzzle games like Mercury
Party game
- Whatever mad schemes devs come up with
That's what I'm seeing. Things like a Mech game where you control left arm with left stick to aim, L1 to shoot, right arm with right stick and R1 to shoot, and mech movement by controller tilt also become availalble.
Of the people I know who play games, invariably they switch rumble off. None are FPS fans. That seems the biggest difference to me at the moment. Fans of FPS and racers feel rumble adds a lot to games. Non-fans don't think the same. Totally unscientific observations, mind! Maybe you can come up with your own lists of what rumble adds to these games that improves gameplay over tilt?
FPS
- Warning when taking damage when not obvious
Racer
- Warning of collisions or leaving track, rumble strip
Hack-n-slash
- When you're getting low on health as a warning, save you looking up at the health bar
Soccer
Platformer
Turn based RPG
Fantasy real-time RPG
RTS
- Alert to bring your attention to some else on the battlefield other than where you're looking, such as base is being attacked.
Puzzle game
- Warning for time running low
Party game
As you see, I haven't done very well! And some of those can be easily accomodated by on screen windows or audio alerts. It won't have the urgency of the rumble, for sure, but the purpose of the rumble in these cases can be provided by other methods, such as a warning sound for puzzlers or RTS, a red flash on the screen when you're taking damage in an FPS.
Now if I think what tilt control could add to these genres that cannot be satisified with DS2 and rumble :
FPS
- Camera control, extra player movements, keeping hands on movement and attack buttons
Racer
- Camera control, freelook, (semi) intuitive stearing alternative
Hack-n-slash
- Camera control keeping hands on movement and attack buttons
Soccer
- Camera control in 1 player. Intuitive player shimmying/maneouvring control.
Platformer
- Motion based control without using sticks at all
Turn based RPG
Fantasy real-time RPG
- Camera control, extra player movements, keeping hands on movement and attack buttons
RTS
- Map/camera control
Puzzle game
- Motion based puzzle games like Mercury
Party game
- Whatever mad schemes devs come up with
That's what I'm seeing. Things like a Mech game where you control left arm with left stick to aim, L1 to shoot, right arm with right stick and R1 to shoot, and mech movement by controller tilt also become availalble.
Of the people I know who play games, invariably they switch rumble off. None are FPS fans. That seems the biggest difference to me at the moment. Fans of FPS and racers feel rumble adds a lot to games. Non-fans don't think the same. Totally unscientific observations, mind! Maybe you can come up with your own lists of what rumble adds to these games that improves gameplay over tilt?
Really, I think the new controller will open up new gameplay possibilities.
As for the missing rumble, Sony or a third party (who paid for the Rumble license) can find an alternative. I would go for a subwoofer chair
But seriously, I hope Sony continues to supply a rumble API for developers so that the feature is builtin (Cross platform developers need to do it for other consoles anyway).
As for the missing rumble, Sony or a third party (who paid for the Rumble license) can find an alternative. I would go for a subwoofer chair
But seriously, I hope Sony continues to supply a rumble API for developers so that the feature is builtin (Cross platform developers need to do it for other consoles anyway).
It's actually a tough comparison, since one is feedback and one is input, and input will have a more direct impact on a game and therefore more "obvious" in terms of its value. And I don't want to get into an argument about the value of Sony's new feature, since I would end up arguing with myself--I like the feature for sure.Shifty Geezer said:
But I'll be honest and say that the lack of a rumble feature is almost a deal breaker for me. It's a step back, and surely you'd agree regardless of your personal feelings and uses for it (I think it's mainly a disagreement with how much of a step back it is). I'm with Patsu in saying that I hope Sony continues to support a rumble feedback API and that developers continue to use it, even though the first party controller will lack it.
Well, if I would rate it a step backwards it'd be a miniscule one. Hoenstly, rumble doesn't feature on my radar at all and I couldn't care less whether it goes or not, any more than I could be disappointed at the lack of FireWire in later PS2s. It's not something I miss, and the replacement I think a much better alternative, though of course if they could have had both, that would make everyone happy. Though there is the point, what happens when the rumble affects the motion sensors? Could be a good feature, shaking the camera when the car hits the rumble stripSis said:
I'm not going to take side in this shock vs. sensor debate, but just wanted to drop a few cool ideas I got for use of the sensor/tilt feature
Platformers:
- Balancing across, eh stuff could make for a little more fun than with the d-pad or sticks. And improve camera control.
Sports:
- Would be especially nice in say a snowboarding game when turning, and new possibilities concernig in-air tricks and combos.
Same in skateboarding and of course sufring games.
- In a game like Moto GP you could maybe turn almost like on the bike!
Games like Burnout:
- Could be useful for new types of combos in the Aftertouch system.
Platformers:
- Balancing across, eh stuff could make for a little more fun than with the d-pad or sticks. And improve camera control.
Sports:
- Would be especially nice in say a snowboarding game when turning, and new possibilities concernig in-air tricks and combos.
Same in skateboarding and of course sufring games.
- In a game like Moto GP you could maybe turn almost like on the bike!
Games like Burnout:
- Could be useful for new types of combos in the Aftertouch system.
I agree totally, but this problem could be circumvented by making the "kinetic" features triggerable by one of the (R1/L1?) buttons. I hope most games will go in this direction.ERP said:
Anyway, I believe that gestures would make most sense for things that actually should take time / be uncomfortable in the game, ie. reloading a gun by a quick left-right shake. That would get rid of the artificial "stop" in the action and replace it by something that actually makes sense from a gameplay perspective - making the player feel the same frantic need to quickly perform the gesture that the character feels.
(Not that I'm particularly interested in games where you reload guns, it's just an idea
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