$ony Quality

randycat99 said:
PC-Engine said:
Yes it's cumulative, but what I was saying is that to get better transient response from a highly mechanically damped driver like a tweeter, a stronger magnet can over come this mechanical damping by moving the mass quicker.

It will move the mass "quicker" as far as gain and sensitivity are concerned. It won't move it faster as far as higher excursions at higher frequencies due to the negative impacts of overdamping. Contrary to your belief, tweeters rely on comparable amounts of both mechanical and electrical damping. A stronger motor does not "overcome" mechanical damping. It adds to it. They are cumulative, period. An overdamped system is not going to give you any sort transient performance to brag about, AT ALL. It doesn't matter how much more force you apply, the farther you swing into the overdamping regime, the slower your response will be.

The electrical damping comes from the amp and is usually helps the lower frequency driver.

A low frequency driver has some of both, but electrical damping is the dominant component. Nevertheless, the 2 damping components are cumulative. They do not counteract.

The damping factor of the amp is for the low frequency driver. The high frequency driver depends more on mechanical while the low depends on eletrical.

This is hogwash. Either system relies on the cumulative damping of the 2 damping components. The "damping factor" of an amp is something entirely different, and virtually always irrelevant for any speaker being driven by a modern solid-state amp (not a tube amp). You don't want to bring "damping factor" into this because not only is it a different term than you mean altogether, but it is not relevant to the improvement of transient performance on an electrodynamic speaker system, period.

Also regarding materials, Pioneer back in the 90's had a pure carbon dome tweeter that went up to 35kHz ;)

Fair enough. You can tell how feasible it was by how prevalent it is in use today in current speakers, right? :p

The damping factor of an amp is not something different. It's used to reduce phase distortion something you've been talking about and placing a great importance on.

BTW Pioneer changes materials all the time that's what they do. It has nothing to do with feasibility. Technology changes. BTW those were their top of the line component car tweeters. Like I said before metal is prevalent and used because it's easy/cheap to form/stamp. I could name other manufacturers that use exotic materials and composites to reach 30kHz, but I think I've proven my point already. Also the crossover point on most tweeter is around 3kHz and higher so the 2kHz you're referring to is irrelevent as far as tweeter distortion and transient response is concerned.
 
PC-Engine said:
The damping factor of an amp is not something different. It's used to reduce phase distortion something you've been talking about and placing a great importance on.

The damping factor of the amp is simply the load impedance of the speaker over the output impedance of the amp. A simple marketing number- virtually nothing to do with the motor damping of a particular speaker driver when connected to a typical solid state amp. You utterly blew any speaker knowledge credibility you had with your above "damping factor" statement! The performance differences you get from an amp with a damping factor of 100, 500, 1000, etc, are indistinguishable, and it sure isn't going to give you magic transient response. The mechanical and emf damping of a certain speaker driver will contribute to the phase behavior of a tweeter (to reiterate, it will give you a phase response- no guarantee of a "better" phase response). You would need either an *extremely* crappy solid state amp or a traditional style tube amp for "damping factor" to make a damn bit of difference. You would find the difference wouldn't be helping your transient performance, either.


BTW Pioneer changes materials all the time that's what they do. It has nothing to do with feasibility. Technology changes. BTW those were their top of the line component car tweeters. Like I said before metal is used because it's easy to form/stamp. I could name other manufacturers that use composites to reach 30kHz, but I think I've proven my point already.

You can buy a $3.50 Motorola Piezo tweeter that "goes up to" 40 kHz. What does that prove? Does that obviate that it might be breaking up at 10 kHz? Do you think it will sound good? Will the transient response necessarily be better than a well-controlled metal dome tweeter that only goes to 22 kHz? I don't feel you have proven anything except run in circles. Believe what you will, as you seem to disregard anything I have given. You go on buying your amps spec'd by "damping factor"! :LOL: Buy those speaker drivers with gigantic magnets, thinking your transient response is bar none! :LOL: How about some little TP stands to hold up your speaker wire? ...or throw some cute little pillows into your room corners? I got a $500 green ink pen for your CD's, while you're at it! :LOL: :LOL: Ignorance is bliss, indeed, and the self-qualified audiophile is no exception! Always- more $ than sense. :oops:
 
The thing is it DOES sound better which makes all your theoretical BS moot. In practice it makes a difference to my ears ;)

Good thing you didn't make a living out of designing speakers as your design wouldn't be able to hold a candle to the competition :p
 
PC-Engine said:
Also the crossover point on most tweeter is around 3kHz and higher so the 2kHz you're referring to is irrelevent as far as tweeter distortion and transient response is concerned.

You don't get it do you? You keep running round and round in circles to frantically come up with something that remotely makes sense. If I say that phase response is fubar from 2 kHz and up, it doesn't matter if you are using a high-pass filter or not. What do you think- phase response deviates from 0 from DC to 2 kHz, then magically straightens out to 0 again from there on out??? Your response is fubar from the very start to the very end. Get it???
 
randycat99 - you seem to know alot about speakers (how this thread got to that i dunno.) what would u recommend for a car audio system ? Nothing to expensive under a grand. I'm buying a jeep liberty in sept and want to know what i should do to it. I'm buying the limited.
 
randycat99 said:
PC-Engine said:
Also the crossover point on most tweeter is around 3kHz and higher so the 2kHz you're referring to is irrelevent as far as tweeter distortion and transient response is concerned.

You don't get it do you? You keep running round and round in circles to frantically come up with something that remotely makes sense. If I say that phase response is fubar from 2 kHz and up, it doesn't matter if you are using a high-pass filter or not. What do you think- phase response deviates from 0 from DC to 2 kHz, then magically straightens out to 0 again from there on out??? Your response is fubar from the very start to the very end. Get it???

So why did you bring up 2kHz in the first place?
 
PC-Engine said:
The thing is it DOES sound better which makes all your theoretical BS moot. In practice it makes a difference to my ears ;)

In practice, just throwing down a couple grand on something will make you think it sounds better. So your comment is a weak, weak rationalization at best.

Good thing you didn't make a living out of designing speakers as your design wouldn't be able to hold a candle to the competition :p

very classy :rolleyes:
 
PC-Engine said:
So why did you bring up 2kHz in the first place?

That is a typical system resonance for a tweeter. Where there is a resonance, there is certain to be a shift in phase response. More importantly, once you go past a resonance, you are past the point where the tweeter dome can move in-phase with the applied signal. It is lagging by greater and greater degrees. If it is lagging, your ideal transient response is fubar. This is not to say it won't sound reasonably "transient". Technically, it is not transient, though.
 
randycat99 said:
PC-Engine said:
The thing is it DOES sound better which makes all your theoretical BS moot. In practice it makes a difference to my ears ;)

In practice, just throwing down a couple grand on something will make you think it sounds better. So your comment is a weak, weak rationalization at best.

Good thing you didn't make a living out of designing speakers as your design wouldn't be able to hold a candle to the competition :p

very classy :rolleyes:

Theory and practice are two different worlds. Actually I can hear a difference between a pair of component tweeters that go up to 35kHz and ones that go up to 22kHz. Sorry but it's not psychological. Many people can and most of them don't know anything about speaker design ;)

BTW the Pioneer tweeters only cost $150 a pair not thousands :p
 
jvd said:
randycat99 - you seem to know alot about speakers (how this thread got to that i dunno.) what would u recommend for a car audio system ? Nothing to expensive under a grand. I'm buying a jeep liberty in sept and want to know what i should do to it. I'm buying the limited.

This can be a rather long discussion, and I need to hit the sack. So, I'll be short this time out, and you can ask more specific questions later if you wish. I also preface that I know a lot about the actual design of speaker drivers, but that doesn't necessarily mean I can design you the perfect car system (similar, but different expertise; like asking a lab chemist to recommend a medical prescription to you).

For starters, you could look into a setup using JL Audio equipment (where I worked once upon a time). W/o knowing how serious you are about such a project, I can suggest your getting a stealthbox for a subwoofer, possibly, followed with a VR or XR component or coax speaker set.
 
PC-Engine said:
Theory and practice are two different worlds. Actually I can hear a difference between a pair of component tweeters that go up to 35kHz and ones that go up to 22kHz. Sorry but it's not psychological. Many people can and most of them don't know anything about speaker design ;)

Did it ever occur to you that maybe you are hearing a difference in response from 6-12 kHz? Of course not, because you have magically superior ultrasonic hearing. :rolleyes: Not all tweeters sound alike in their "audible" range, even if they have exactly the same upper end cutoff. :idea: If you don't have a technical understanding of audio and speaker technology, then how can you rightly determine what you are hearing? Discerning something that sounds "good" is certainly possible, but as soon as you attempt to associate that with dubious technical specs, that is where you may run aground. To that effect, it seems you are off-track on a lot of stuff, regardless of your confidence over it. ...But that's just little ole me saying that, so does it really matter? I never imagined I could convince you of any of this, but I didn't want to let the other readers here go on your words alone w/o realizing there is an entirely different side of the story to it (the right side, in my estimation ;) ).
 
Yeah, there are equalizers, but there are right reasons to use them and wrong ones. Additionally, the highest frequency slider is usually 16 kHz, unless you are buying some really high level equipment. I don't even know why you bring up equalizers. If you supposedly have bionic, ultrasonic hearing, why would you need to boost there? In most cases, the only thing you would accomplish by boosting 20 kHz is to magnify noise from either the system or the program material. To suggest doing so changes diddly with the limitations we have already discussed.
 
You will find that the Ooashi paper is subject to much controversy as to relevance to this day. The conclusions of this white paper are in similar jeopardy as a result of this controversy. So essentially, we are not much further ahead in substantiating the benefits of 20+ kHz playback than we were before (though it is great media fodder to help sell SACD equipment and "supertweeters" in the meantime ==> back to "more $ than sense" issue). You can find all the "papers" you wish to support a contention that ultrasonic frequency response is a dire need, but ultimately it comes down to what you can actually hear and if those ultrasonic signals will ever occur in any consumer release recording that you get a hold of (mind you, a special recording of "a" trumpet may indicate the possibility of ultrasonic bandwidth, but that is no guarantee whatsoever that "any" recording of a trumpet will have similar extension). Given that the recording industry is having "trouble" mastering a recording w/o resorting to severe compression to get the "loudness" effect, let alone even coming close to technically challenging the limits of just plain ole Redbook CD standard, it will be a long, long time before "special trumpet bandwidths" will become an issue.

Seriously, you should go get your hearing checked just for kicks. You may be quite surprised (with what you aren't hearing). ;) Further logistical tangles abound from there on with regard to genuine 50 kHz-ish operation. I'll just say that they are "there", to avoid endless more pages of having to describe them.
 
During development of the SuperTweeter, an interesting result was noted. We were trying to cancel a 10dB peak in the response at 30kHz, electrically in the crossover network. For the measurements, we used a pseudo- random digital noise sequence, with 100kHz bandwidth. The presence or absence of this peak could readily be discriminated by listeners, even under blind conditions. There was however no change in the measured frequency response below 28kHz, further supporting the above research.

Even with conventional CD sources, the addition of a SuperTweeter reduces phase error and improves transient performance significantly below 20kHz. This leads to increased tonal accuracy at all frequencies, as the harmonics of instruments are not distorted in time. This benefits any high quality loudspeaker...


The Mission Pilastro's 50kHz extended frequency response was designed to take advantage of the SACD and DVD Audio format. Some people are perfectly happy with their speakers that rolloff at 22kHz and regular CDs. I however want speakers that can take full advantage of the SACD and DVD Audio formats. The Tannoy whitepaper has much more credibility than what you've said so far which AFAIC is opinion based on outdated classical theories. Like I said before advances in speaker technology have already transcended the classical theories that have limited designs of the past. You can either stick with the old way of doing things or you can adopt new methods that have already proven to be superior.

BTW the equalizer with the 20Hz and 20kHz gain adjustments only cost a couple hundred dollars. I use it to tailor my music. Also when I adjust the 20kHz gain to say 12 db I can hear the increased gain especially from cymbals. However I'll probably have my hearing checked just for kicks as I'm curious as to how high in the frequency spectrum it can go. 8)
 
There is hearing and there is hearing, the ear provides all kinds of non-linear niceties ... so just since you cant hear a given tone doesnt mean you cant perceive it's down-mixed result in a complex sound.
 
PC-Engine said:
During development of the SuperTweeter, an interesting result was noted. We were trying to cancel a 10dB peak in the response at 30kHz, electrically in the crossover network. For the measurements, we used a pseudo- random digital noise sequence, with 100kHz bandwidth. The presence or absence of this peak could readily be discriminated by listeners, even under blind conditions. There was however no change in the measured frequency response below 28kHz, further supporting the above research.

Hey, they found "a" test that supports their assertion! Do they also cite the hundreds of tests that would falsify the assertion? (This is akin to throwing the dart and then placing the bullseye around it.) Of course not, this is a white paper intended to explain why a product "needs" to exist. Why just cite a single instance where something happened with an electronic filter and a pseudo-random noise sample? Why not cite more pertinent examples where the listeners could indentify using actual music samples? Could it be that such tests were conducted and the results were not particularly supportive to the focus of the whitepaper? Hmmm...

Even with conventional CD sources, the addition of a SuperTweeter reduces phase error and improves transient performance significantly below 20kHz. This leads to increased tonal accuracy at all frequencies, as the harmonics of instruments are not distorted in time. This benefits any high quality loudspeaker...

This is where they conveniently stepped into "marketing mode". As has already been discussed, phase error is pretty out of whack by around 2 kHz and above so improvements to transient performance are dubious, at best. It is simply a well-behaved tweeter with extended ultrasonic range. Nothing wrong with being just that, but that doesn't really shout out and SELL. If the phase error is drifting around by 2 kHz, the "harmonics of instruments" are pretty much as "distorted in time" as they can get. As long as it is well-behaved, you won't notice anything untoward so as to challenge the claim. That still doesn't make it true, but this is marketing not dissemination of fact.


Some people are perfectly happy with their speakers that rolloff at 22kHz and regular CDs. I however want speakers that can take full advantage of the SACD and DVD Audio formats.

In that case, I'm sure you have prepped your system to play to levels as high as 150 dB at less than .001% distortion to get the full dynamic range and "finesse" of SACD? You do realize you have as much as 50 dB of ambient noise to overcome in a typical home listening environment, right? Do you have your mega-watt rating speakers and amps to handle that? Will this Supertweeter even handle more than a 100 W? 20 W? How about the rest of your electronics? Good to 110 dB S/N? That must be one speeecial EQ you have there to do that . 75 dB S/N would be typical for an average EQ. 90 dB would be a pretty good piece. Where do you think yours sits? How about the tweeters in your speakers? Are they precisely aimed to fire directly into your ear canals at some desired seating location? Tweeters of any reasonable dome size tend to get quite beamy above 15 kHz, let alone a whopping 50 kHz. If you aren't on-axis, don't count on getting much output reaching you above 15 kHz or so. See how the logistics ruthlessly pile up against you? Suffice to say, adding an SACD player to your "old" system and expecting to automatically gain the benefits of said format is more than just a fanciful wish. You got to literally rethink/revamp everything down the chain (lucky for equipment dealers, I'm sure), and literally all of it seriously challenges the bounds of practicality (think the neighbors will put up with your 150 dB outbursts?). Got your pseudo-random noise SACD to listen to, to make it all pay off? Got to have that! Otherwise it all degenerates to just elitist style specsmanship. Oh wait...

The Tannoy whitepaper has much more credibility than what you've said so far which AFAIC is opinion based on outdated classical theories.

Perhaps you believe the whitepaper more because it is telling you what you want to hear? You'll find a lot of audiophile facets that rely on this psychology quite heavily. Don't believe what I say because it is "old" news? Suit yourself. They are the basics. Does the classical theory of "loudness curve" suddenly not apply, as well? Probably not (in your estimation), as that would make it substantially more difficult (if at all possible) to "hear" ultrasonic bandwidth once your music sample contains things such as midrange and low treble. It simply "cannot be" lest your ultrasonic hearing aspirations evaporate into a faint pipe dream... Also wonder how much of your sensitive ultrasonic hearing you will keep with frequent outbursts of 150 dB program material?

Like I said before advances in speaker technology have already transcended the classical theories that have limited designs of the past.

I see- broken the laws of physics, as it seems? If you can make that logical leap, one only wonders what you wouldn't believe...

You can either stick with the old way of doing things or you can adopt new methods that have already proven to be superior.

...or just market them as "superior", and hope no one knows better. Could this be you?

BTW the equalizer with the 20Hz and 20kHz gain adjustments only cost a couple hundred dollars. I use it to tailor my music. Also when I adjust the 20kHz gain to say 12 db I can hear the increased gain especially from cymbals.

I guess the term "Q" is utterly foreign to you? No chance you are just hearing the sideband effects at 16 kHz, right? Maybe even a bit of extra zing at a mere 12 kHz? The slider says "20", so that must be the frequency, I'm hearing... :rolleyes: Also, did it ever occur to you that arbitrarily applying boosts with an EQ further contorts your precious phase response any which way but "true"? So much for accurate transient performance.

I have no problem believing you have attained a system that sounds terrific to you. However, the associations you have made to certain technical aspects are just riddled with logical holes. The more you reveal, the more "what if's" you pose, the more outlandish your position is revealed to be.
 
Again you haven't backed up ANY of your theories then you make ALOT of assumptions to TRY and make your nonsubstantiated theories sound true. Where's YOUR proof? I've already provided my sources whether you consider it marketing or not. Many many speaker manufacturers are making the same discoveries.

BTW you don't know ANYTHING about audio equipment. Most good EQs have a S/N ratio of over 100db mine goes past 110 :p

Have you ever heard of constant Q? 20kHz only my friend.

Where did you get you laws of physics from? Where's your source? Yeah that's what I thought. Do you have a phd in acoustic science? The laws are common knowledge right? It's out there and anyone can find them right? Well can you please provide a source that says transient response is fubar past 2kHz? preferably a current white paper?

Everything is marketing to you because you can't admit that you're wrong with outdated theories. Until you can prove otherwise you're just spewing BS ;)

50db of ambient room noise my ass...sorry but I don't live by the freeway man :p

Try listening to some classical man. Don't know where you get your loudness BS. You must listen to Eminem :LOL:

Blame it on marketing when you can't find substantiated evidence to prove otherwise...typical :rolleyes:
 
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