Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[scently]

Yeah but remember that the design its still not final, I just would like to be sure if the Natal hardware that lets the 360 CPU do all the work is the final one or if the final hardware will help in some way.

This news shows that the Natal hardware will be better when it launches, but why I would like to know, I mean in what way will the final hardware will be improved, because it doesn’t seem like its just the software part that is improving.

"I did some boxing moves. I did a few little jabs and honestly it works. It picked them up. You could see my character in silhouette mimicking my moves," he said. "That's where it's going to be exciting."

Interestingly, Bradbury revealed that Microsoft had told him an improved version of the prototype is now ready.

"[Microsoft] did make a point that the next generation of prototype, which is now ready, which is not what we were using, we were using the E3 hardware. The new stuff is even more precise, the movements are more precise," he said.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/next-gen_natal_prototype_is_ready.html

Not only that, but Peter Molyneux also said that the unit used for the demos until now are not the final unit.

But as others have said, until e3, we won't know the full (and current) capabilities of Natal.

That said I think there IS a reason for this press release/ information.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Not only that, but Peter Molyneux also said that the unit used for the demos until now are not the final unit.

But as others have said, until e3, we won't know the full (and current) capabilities of Natal.

That said I think there IS a reason for this press release/ information.

Im not sure what you mean, what do you think is the reason for this press release/information?

Id be inclined to think its to do with PrimSense's stock value or something like that.

 

[scently]

Im not sure what you mean, what do you think is the reason for this press release/information?

Id be inclined to think its to do with PrimSense's stock value or something like that.

Nah, I am just speculating.

I mean it just came out of the left field. I would think that they would have waited until e3 since it was not announce during GDC or CES.

It could be as you said though, to increase PrimSense's stock value.

 

[LightHeaven]

That’s what I’m saying, the original Natal design included two chips, PrimeSense is promoting their tech as an all in one chip, but lets wait and see.

Did it? The PR from E3 only mentioned a single chip aswell... Unless the decision to drop the second chip is prior to E3...

 

[LightHeaven]

The clue's in your own links! Look at the diagram on the right, and the bullet-point description of their solution :




[/LIST]They provide a page about their middleware : http://www.primesense.com/category/nite_middleware

But they do seem to imply, scrap that, they state that analyzing this data requires only a small footprint.

On some article today i saw that they demoed their tech on a very low end atom pc at gdc10, but that still does not gives an actual figure of how much processing resources this is gonna take from 360 anyway.


(But to be honest, i think this whole discussion based on processing power is a bit deceived because i believe the impact the 50 mb-ish is going to have on 360's avaiable memory is going to be far great than whatever it takes from the cpu)

 

[AzBat]

Dean Takahashi reaffirms that MS still has a software agreement with GestureTek for "motion-sensing games".

http://games.venturebeat.com/2010/0...ion-sensors-used-in-microsofts-project-natal/

He originally revealed the following last September...

Several 3-D camera makers have been working on making low-cost 3-D cameras. Microsoft bought 3DV Systems earlier this year, and it has also been working with PrimeSense. It wasn’t completely clear why.

At the Emerging Display Technologies conference this week, we got one answer. Frances MacDougall, chief technology officer at GestureTek, said his company was also working on Project Natal. Asked why there were so many vendors on Natal, he said that Microsoft will be using a low-cost 3-D camera from PrimeSense. But it purchased 3DV because it had a strong patent portfolio. And GestureTek itself is providing a software layer that helps interpret the data coming in from the 3-D camera and makes it useful for the game machine. Microsoft also tapped its research division for other technologies such as face recognition and voice recognition.

http://venturebeat.com/2009/09/05/h...microsofts-project-natal-game-control-system/

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

Yeah I wouldn't write off finger tracking as part of the hand gesture recognition. Should be able to decipher the 'hand motion' with or without the skeletons.

 

[Squilliam]

What difference would a higher definition camera make for Natal?

If the current camera is 640/480 x 60FPS, what difference would triple or six times the resolution make to the interface itself at the same rate at 1280 by 720 or 1920 by 1080 resolution? In this context im thinking about the next generation Natal interface in maybe 4-5 years time and what additional capabilities it may bring.

To be honest im a little disappointed in the resolution of the current camera, but I can understand why they used what is essentially a cheap as chips part.

 

[LightHeaven]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-4-FObaRU

Its a video from a 3d camera made by some company named Orange. Buuuuuut, that's kinda of what i was thinking about having a pointer interface with natal... Aside from some jerkiness, specially when his hand goes back to the field of view of the camera seems quite responsive and accurate.

 

[LightHeaven]

What difference would a higher definition camera make for Natal?

If the current camera is 640/480 x 60FPS, what difference would triple or six times the resolution make to the interface itself at the same rate at 1280 by 720 or 1920 by 1080 resolution? In this context im thinking about the next generation Natal interface in maybe 4-5 years time and what additional capabilities it may bring.

To be honest im a little disappointed in the resolution of the current camera, but I can understand why they used what is essentially a cheap as chips part.

I guess the first benefit from a higher resolution would be increased precision even far from the camera...

With a 1080p depth image, i don't think tracking fingers would be an issue, at all.

 

[cakefoo]

I think MS has done a fabulous job of overhyping this peripheral's capabilities, as it has gotten Natal more attention for what people hope or wish it can do, rather than for what it actually can do.

 

[Squilliam]

I guess the first benefit from a higher resolution would be increased precision even far from the camera...

With a 1080p depth image, i don't think tracking fingers would be an issue, at all.

So how much more would such a high definition camera cost? Also is the limitation here the camera cost or the data cable?

 

[dragonelite]

I think MS has done a fabulous job of overhyping this peripheral's capabilities, as it has gotten Natal more attention for what people hope or wish it can do, rather than for what it actually can do.

We don't know what it can do that's something for E3 to reveal.
I just life with this rule for hype "expect nothing and get everything".

 

[scently]

We don't know what it can do that's something for E3 to reveal.
I just life with this rule for hype "expect nothing and get everything".

A very sound rule if I do say so myself.

 

[eloic]

NATAL vs EyeToy/PSEye in practical purposes/games.

Mod : Merged from separate thread.
NATAL... hm, I like the concept, I would like to try it because I'm sure it could be fun. I'm not a NATAL hater but I'm not completely satisfied when I see Microsoft presenting their new invention as something that revolutionary... Revolutionary in the method, yes, but in the results... all the time?

I know that the technology is very different from EyeToy/PSEye (that's why I post this thread out of the Console Technology section). Natal is more advanced, since it tracks skeletal movement in 3d, but, for practical purposes, what are the true advantages in comparison with EyeToy/PSEye?

I was wondering that when I was reading this thread from VGChartz:
http://vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=105768&page=1
The most of these ideas can be done (in my humble opinion) with EyeToy/PSEye, with the proper code.

Moreover, the "stellar" demonstrations in the GDC last year weren't that stellar and revolutionary for me.

So the question is: what are your ideas on what NATAL can do?

I imagine NATAL doing only a few impossible things for the EyeToy/PSEye and even in the case those few things are possible, are they convincing and practical for a gamer, for a true gameplay implementation?

I definitely don't see NATAL as revolutionary as the way Wii motion controllers were in comparison with the previous way we played.

For a more general discussion on the current generation motion controllers, please visit this previous thread in these fora:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54307&highlight=NATAL

Thank you for your participation.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Mod : Merged from separate thread.
That VGChartz thread has lots of options that aren't possible with Eyetoy. PSEye is a bit closer thanks to advances in processing power and image recognition, and we've seen various skeletal and body tracking demos for standard 2D cameras, but even then accurate body tracking is unique to Natal. Thus you could list Natal-specific gameplay to : any object-swinging (sword/bat/racquet) that doesn't need wrist-level accuracy; tracking position/posture for health&fitness titles; leg tracking for soccer penalties and football kicks; accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games; extended natural motion party games. Some titles could be produced in dumbed-down form on 2D cameras, so if your looking for stuff that can't be done at all on PSEye, the list may be fairly limited. The point to Natal is it's working in with depth and not having to use hacks.

As such, I see this only as a technical discussion for which there is already the motion controller thread. Given a lack of examples from yourself about 'Natal titles' that would work with PSEye, there's no real discussion point, and the thread reads as a single post about your lack of conviction for Natal, which isn't worth a thread on its own. I'll try and find somewhere to merge it with.

 

[grandmaster]

Yesterday I interviewed the PrimeSense CEO and VP of Business/Marketing about their technology, the hook-up with Microsoft etc. Interesting stuff - the interview will be up on DF tomorrow.

 

[BadTB25]

Yesterday I interviewed the PrimeSense CEO and VP of Business/Marketing about their technology, the hook-up with Microsoft etc. Interesting stuff - the interview will be up on DF tomorrow.

Look forward to reading it as usual.

 

[corduroygt]

What difference would a higher definition camera make for Natal?

If the current camera is 640/480 x 60FPS, what difference would triple or six times the resolution make to the interface itself at the same rate at 1280 by 720 or 1920 by 1080 resolution? In this context im thinking about the next generation Natal interface in maybe 4-5 years time and what additional capabilities it may bring.

To be honest im a little disappointed in the resolution of the current camera, but I can understand why they used what is essentially a cheap as chips part.

It would be able to differentiate between your fingers, since right now it probably only has about 40x40 resolution for each hand when you're standing 8-9 feet away from it. From that 40x40 picture it has to track 5 fingers. A higher resolution would improve this issue.

 

[patsu]

The PS Move hands-on in Boston:
http://www.examiner.com/x-12218-Vid...ion-by-channel-rss-National-Games_and_Hobbies

Was wondering how it will feel in my hands. Also thought the []X^O butons are awkwardly placed:

When you first hold the controller, you'll instantly notice that it's very light to hold. The weight can be best compared to the launch PS3 SIXAXIS controller, so it almost feels as light as a feather and it's certainly lighter than the Wii-mote. The curvature of the controller also makes holding the controller a far more comfortable fit than the Wii-mote, and all the buttons are easily accessible.

...

To your surprise, the bulb is actually very soft and isn't hard plastic like you may expect. You can squash it, squeeze it, and smack it into objects without having to worry about it breaking or shattering.