Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

Status
Not open for further replies.
dragonelite said:
If they would implement natal i could see them using it for maybe theater 2.0 or forge 2.0 but not for gameplay its way to competitive. Maybe a hybrid solution for gameplay like tilt head to right to lean right or hand gestures for squad members. But no natal only gameplay.:devilish:
Click to expand...

Exactly, things like motion capture for use in machinima or manipulating objects using forge. Secondary features that wouldn't affect the core gameplay but would be a talking point none the less.

Really the only reasons for Bungie to not implement some sort of Natal support would be due to the processing overhead or due to lack of time.
 
Or lack of desire to use it. Take sixaxis motion controls, its not left out of most PS3 games because of processing overhead or lack of time. Just because you can use something doesnt mean they should. The game may benefit more from the development time/rescources being spent elsewere. Implementing natal in a way that Bungie feels meets their high standards is likely to take considerable effort, effort that they may not feel is worth it.

I suspect Natal not being used in reach could be more to do with Bungie becoming independant. They have little incentive to use it, its not going to sell and more coppies of their game IMO, and making natal a success is no longer their concern.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ShadowRunner said:
Or lack of desire to use it. Take sixaxis motion controls, its not left out of most PS3 games because of processing overhead or lack of time. Just because you can use something doesnt mean they should. The game may benefit more from the development time/rescources being spent elsewere. Implementing natal in a way that Bungie feels meets their high standards is likely to take considerable effort, effort that they may not feel is worth it.

I suspect Natal not being used in reach could be more to do with Bungie becoming independant. They have little incentive to use it, its not going to sell and more coppies of their game IMO, and making natal a success is no longer their concern.
Click to expand...
Exactly, Why include it if its going to be gimmicky or feel tacked on. Bungie's president said it can be used but it does not mean it should.
 
scently said:
Oh wow, this thread is full of awesome.
"Natal uses 10-15% of the xbox360's cpu power"
Oh it can never have impressive looking games since they max out the 360 already.
"PSMove uses one of the ps3 SPU"
Nah, its the reserve SPU.
Anyway no game uses the SPU to maximum yet.


Absolutely awesome logic and reasoning right there, totally full proof.
Click to expand...

Sorry, should we PM you are posts first to ensure they meet your QC?

As already pointed out, we're speculating on the evidence (as good/bad as it may be) at hand. It doesn't help that MS seem to have overpromised on their tech and have now gone quite (other than drip-feeding the 'limitations' of the system). OTOH Sony have shown the tech working on a 'real' game and shown the tech pretty much has the potential to do everything they said it would...with minimal overhead.

WRT negativity to the Move, there's plenty - not least the digs at Sony for 'copying the Wii', back-tracking, the 'silly light bulb/lolly' and making stupid comments about the Wii!
 
scently said:
Oh wow, this thread is full of awesome.
"Natal uses 10-15% of the xbox360's cpu power"
Oh it can never have impressive looking games since they max out the 360 already.
"PSMove uses one of the ps3 SPU"
Nah, its the reserve SPU.
Anyway no game uses the SPU to maximum yet.


Absolutely awesome logic and reasoning right there, totally full proof.
Click to expand...

I still fail to understand what is your problem.

We go by the information that we have available.

Both Move and Natal have been receiving their criticisms, speculations and the deserved positive remarks since the beginning in these forums.

You may find some things that you may not like to hear but this is how things are and what comes out of the information and concerns that we have now. Our opinions and impressions are yet to be finalized and we give it he benefit of the doubt even as such. This has nothing to do with taking sides and I dont understand why you see it that way
 
scently said:
Exactly, Why include it if its going to be gimmicky or feel tacked on. Bungie's president said it can be used but it does not mean it should.
Click to expand...

And i dont see natal really being implemented as a controller replacement for shooters.
What makes natal more interesting for me is what for new genres it brings to the consoles.
Still keeps finger crossed for finger tracking so that the more mouse heavy genres on pc can make a more better migration to the consoles. Like fps i had hoped that R.U.S.E would be natal compatible they showed it working on the Microsoft touch table.:rolleyes:
 
Seeing that SSM chose to save 5ms/frame from GPU in exchange for 20ms/frame on the SPU's in GOW3 for MLAA, it's clear that the cell is not the bottleneck. At 30-60 variable FPS, that means MLAA is using 0.6-1.2 SPU's by itself alone. SPU power is not really the issue for motion control games, the interface is.
 
patsu said:
Us too. ^_^
Click to expand...
Yeah.:LOL::LOL:
Anyway like you said, I would prefer that Naughty Dog (and any other developers for that matter) choose to create a brand new experience with these motion controllers instead of attaching it to an established game mechanics just for the hell of it.
The main reason (and only reason for now) why I am excited about Natal is not about the games they've shown but rather the ability to navigate the NXE menu without holding anything and also with your voice and facial recognition.
I do hope that by the end of E3, they (MSFT AND Sony) would have shown compelling games to warrant the purchase of their motion controllers.
To me, for these devices to be successful, they need to create genuinely new experience never had before.
I am hoping that Rare and Insomaniac can rise up to the challenge.:cool:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
(((interference))) said:
Actually, that's pretty much true, I doubt that any PS3 game maxes out every SPU, it's simply too hard.

The 360 is much easier to use all three cores, it's more a case of using the available power more efficiently with the 360 rather than figuring out how to tap into any unused power (as is the case with the SPUs on the PS3)

You don't see many 360 developers saying how they've only utilised x% of the 360's power.

Natal seems to definitely have a larger impact on the 360s resources than Move does on the PS3. Look at Halo Reach, Bungie played around with implementing Natal but left it out, this was most likely due to Natal's onboard processing being removed. As if Natal support cost nothing, Bungie (and MS) would likely add some cool feature that would use it, mainly to boost the Natal attach rate.
Click to expand...
Actually, getting performance from either console is not a walk in the park. Due to the in-order execution and a number of other issues (cache miss cost etc), it's all about careful and intensive optimization. Just writing a piece of code in C and compiling it will not get you the best performance.

Both console makers provide some amazing tools that let you find and optimize issues. Pretty much every game released has used 100% of the 360, and yet they still get better. Just because you have code running on all CPUs all the time does not mean that you are fully utilizing the system.
 
scently said:
The main reason (and only reason for now) why I am excited about Natal is not about the games they've shown but rather the ability to navigate the NXE menu without holding anything and also with your voice and facial recognition.
Click to expand...

That's why I wrote up that long post about making XMB and Playstation Home compatible with PS Move. Especially in PS Home, that environment is a natural match for natural interface innovations. Besides navigating abstract layers and hitting buttons, you can also interact with "in-game" objects seamlessly.

I'd love to try a 3D vision XMB with dynamic themes, and PS Home too.
 
bkilian said:
Actually, getting performance from either console is not a walk in the park. Due to the in-order execution and a number of other issues (cache miss cost etc), it's all about careful and intensive optimization. Just writing a piece of code in C and compiling it will not get you the best performance.

Both console makers provide some amazing tools that let you find and optimize issues. Pretty much every game released has used 100% of the 360, and yet they still get better. Just because you have code running on all CPUs all the time does not mean that you are fully utilizing the system.
Click to expand...

Thats what I meant, with the 360 the development centers about how to use system resources most efficiently, with the PS3 much of it is still how to extract the unused power of the Cell.
 
Interesting post in the comments
Yair Mohr said:
Posted Mar 31st 2010 9:55AMNEUTRAL
I have some SHOCKING news for you: An Israeli newspaper has had this knowledge mentioned a few times since June 2009!

"The Marker", which is the high-tech and economy branch of Haaretz, has first mentioned it as "a rumor" in a June 3rd article (here: http://translate.google.com/transla...rker.com/tmit/article/6897&sl=iw&tl=en&swap=1).

Then, 9 days ago, I was amazed to discover that the site has added this as a FACT to my own article from Gadgety (http://translate.google.com/transla...u=http://www.gadgety.co.il/11093/&sl=iw&tl=en) about your hands-on with the technology: "At first, when NATAL was revealed at E3, people thought that Israeli start-up 3DV are the ones behind it. Now we can tell you that Microsoft acquired 3DV to prevent the technology from ending-up in Sony's hands, while their own product is driven by PrimeSense's chip". (full Google Translation: http://translate.google.com/transla....themarker.com/tmit/article/10122&sl=iw&tl=en) Needless to say, This was their own Intel added to my post. I had no idea, but it seems like The Marker have interviewed PS's CEO Inon Brakha several times.
Click to expand...
 
The article is too high level to tell. The chip offers synchronized data to 360 according to here:

Natal’s tech is now thought to be a modified version of the PS1080 chip – built by Israeli company PrimeSense and featuring a “multi-sense system” offering synchronised depth image, colour image and audio stream.
Click to expand...

The skeleton and other high level processing may still be done on the CPU. That could be what people mean when they say MS cut the dual-chip system into half. We will get more detailed report soon enough.

Arwin said:
Interesting post in the comments
Click to expand...

For only 7 million ? That's cheap.
 
patsu said:
The article is too high level to tell. The chip offers synchronized data to 360 according to here:



The skeleton and other high level processing may still be done on the CPU. That could be what people mean when they say MS cut the dual-chip system into half. We will get more detailed report soon enough.



For only 7 million ? That's cheap.
Click to expand...

Thats true...

The wording in this: http://www.primesense.com/category/primesense_chip

Seems like the onboard chip is just a pass through, but it does say that the onboard chip "provides depth acquisition capabilities even to computationally limited host devices.", so perhaps the hard part (as far as processing go) isn't creating the skeleton, but actually acquiring the data?

But yeah, we are probably getting more info soon, hopefully the cpu overhead is minimum and the memory footprint can be reduced even more XD
 
I think that natal is back to the original design and all the image processing and motion recognition is made on the natal hardware.

"The PrimeSensor Reference Design is a low-cost, plug and play, USB-powered device that can either sit on top of or next to a television screen or a monitor, or be integrated into them. The Reference Design generates realtime depth, color and audio data of the living room scene. It works in all room lighting conditions (whether in complete darkness or in a fully lit room).It does not require the user to wear or hold anything, does not require calibration and does not require computational resources from the host’s processor.

full_body_skeleton_580.jpg


http://www.primesense.com/category/product_technology
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Rys
Reopening Architecture and Products + rules and guidelines changes
3 4 5
Replies
90
Views
16K
Shifty Geezer
Shifty Geezer
P
Portable console for all PC games - PGS
2
Replies
31
Views
13K
Cyan
Cyan
A
Forza: A Test Case for next gen hardware discussion
2
Replies
32
Views
9K
tuna
T
N
How do you feel about next-gen gaming? *remodelled
2
Replies
32
Views
8K
AlNom
A
A
Holy Wall of Text: My impressions post Playstation 4 (PS4) unveil
2 3 4
Replies
70
Views
20K
(((interference)))
I
Back
Top