Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[liolio]

The PS Move hands-on in Boston:
http://www.examiner.com/x-12218-Video-Game-Examiner~y2010m3d30-Handson-PlayStation-Move-A-look-at-the-future-of-gaming?cid=edition-by-channel-rss-National-Games_and_Hobbies

Was wondering how it will feel in my hands. Also thought the []X^O butons are awkwardly placed:

The last sentence is close to hilarious after all the talk about how ps move looks

 

[patsu]

Which last sentence ? ^_^

 

[ShadowRunner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-4-FObaRU

Its a video from a 3d camera made by some company named Orange. Buuuuuut, that's kinda of what i was thinking about having a pointer interface with natal... Aside from some jerkiness, specially when his hand goes back to the field of view of the camera seems quite responsive and accurate.

This type of pointing is working on purely the x/y position of the users hand in relation to the camera. I think we always knew this was possible.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

To your surprise, the bulb is actually very soft and isn't hard plastic like you may expect. You can squash it, squeeze it, and smack it into objects without having to worry about it breaking or shattering.

Very smart ergonomics. Although will it keep its shape with too much squishing?

 

[liolio]

Which last sentence ? ^_^

This one:

To your surprise, the bulb is actually very soft and isn't hard plastic like you may expect. You can squash it, squeeze it, and smack it into objects without having to worry about it breaking or shattering.

 

[eloic]

Thus you could list Natal-specific gameplay to : any object-swinging (sword/bat/racquet) that doesn't need wrist-level accuracy; tracking position/posture for health&fitness titles; leg tracking for soccer penalties and football kicks; accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games; extended natural motion party games.

Hi again, Mr. Shifty.

Except for "accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games", I've seen similar things on EyeToy/PSEye (if I have time, I will edit and post some videos, maybe).

Your idea on boxing/fighting games is actually what I dreamt of with NATAL, but that will not be enjoyable with a medium/mediocre programming (I don't think NATAL produces as much shovelware as the Wii, in my opinion, however).

Developers should create a very smart code to overcome lag (is it acceptable to acknowledge lag as a... serious problem with NATAL?) and a coordination between real life and avatar animations (fall to the ground, walk, etc.)...

Boxing looks simpler to code. I don't think we will see a fighting game that could properly recognize fancy WuShu movements (I would like to be wrong, hehe).

 

[eloic]

This one:
--To your surprise, the bulb is actually very soft and isn't hard plastic like you may expect. You can squash it, squeeze it, and smack it into objects without having to worry about it breaking or shattering.--

I thought that you were referring to this:

Was wondering how it will feel in my hands.

...but your clarification made it worse.

Can we move on, please?

 

[patsu]

It would be able to differentiate between your fingers, since right now it probably only has about 40x40 resolution for each hand when you're standing 8-9 feet away from it. From that 40x40 picture it has to track 5 fingers. A higher resolution would improve this issue.

Yes, I am thinking it does not need to discern individual finger movement. The overall hand "pattern", including the fingers, would do.

Very smart ergonomics. Although will it keep its shape with too much squishing?

If it's some sort soft styrofoam material, it should be pretty resilient unless you cut it.

 

[patsu]

Hi again, Mr. Shifty.

Except for "accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games", I've seen similar things on EyeToy/PSEye (if I have time, I will edit and post some videos, maybe).

Any large-grained movement should be doable. I suspect the true 1:1 mapping only comes into play for subtle movement (e.g., table tennis will benefit from sudden wrist twisting) and quick responses (e.g., multiplayer combat). They may translate into better satisfaction because of richer and intuitive interaction. If your tool reacts and lags like a boat, then the game will have to adjust its mechanics (e.g., make it "turn based"). At the end of the day, they will likely manifest as different game libraries.

EDIT:

This one:

I thought that you were referring to this:


...but your clarification made it worse.

Ah... I see. Welp, if it lights up, changes color once a second, then becomes as weightless as a SIXAXIS controller (and squishy !) let me know. I'd want a good laugh too. ;-)

 

[LightHeaven]

So how much more would such a high definition camera cost? Also is the limitation here the camera cost or the data cable?

I think both cost and bandwidth are the limit actually. Usb 2.0 just isn't enough for uncompressed 1080p (i don't think that it could handle even 720p, but i didn't calculate XD)... And if you put an hefty processor for real time encoding to a less demanding format the price of the camera would probably sky rocket... So no deal right now i'd guess...

This type of pointing is working on purely the x/y position of the users hand in relation to the camera. I think we always knew this was possible.

Yeah, i posted the video as an example of the kind of interface i think would be useful with an arm-projecting pointer, not to state that this is the pointing they are using Sorry for not making myself clear XD

I believe this would be a very nice way to control your tv from the sofa, specially if you don't have to move your hands all around XD

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Except for "accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games", I've seen similar things on EyeToy/PSEye (if I have time, I will edit and post some videos, maybe).

2D cameras can't track a jab straight into the screen, or a block's position as to whether the opponent can get their hand behind. Sure, you could create fighting games of a sort, but that's true of pretty much every game - you tailor it to the available resources.

Developers should create a very smart code to overcome lag (is it acceptable to acknowledge lag as a... serious problem with NATAL?) and a coordination between real life and avatar animations (fall to the ground, walk, etc.)...

Well, TBH I didn't factor lag in. At the end of the day if lag is significant for Natal, it doesn't much matter how good the 3D and skeletal tracking is, the games will be seriously gimped as to what you can do.

If it's some sort soft styrofoam material, it should be pretty resilient unless you cut it.

I assumed it was hollow to aid even illumination. I don't know how translucent foams get. Something like 'Nerf' is decidedly opaque. I suppose they could place the LEDs in the centre to get uniform illumination no matter what.

 

[LightHeaven]

Tech demos from a company called Softkinetic, they show a middleware to navigate through 3d environments and even controlling a fps (quake 2) with nothing but your body.

I don't think it's good enough to replace controllers, but some games could add the option to these type of control (on a easier mode) to make the game more accessible for casuals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q81KdhFW-q4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8j_FZM0StM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIKwCfRnPk8

If you search on youtube for Softkinetic you will find a good array of existing games they adopted for use with 3d cameras.

I can totally see Ms relaunching some older games with natal support and dumbed difficult to have a great selection of "jump in" games ready for natal... Sure, controlling with natal would not be as good as with the controller, but the target audience would not need that anyway...

 

[patsu]

I think repurpose might be a better word than dumb down. Existing core games are built with the controller's characteristics in mind. They usually need quick response. So continual body movement may become tiring rather quickly. e.g., In the first video you showed, holding your hand out for extended period is not practical.

It is probably better to build new games for casuals (They'll need to adjust many stats to tone down the difficulty).

However if it is painted in the context of exercise, then it would be a perfect fit. Instead of watching informercials and soap operas while jogging, they can map their daily exercise routines into a game.


Navigating menus in a controller free manner would be very useful. I think the media player application will be a hit.

 

[scently]

I think repurpose might be a better word than dumb down. Existing core games are built with the controller's characteristics in mind. They usually need quick response. So continual body movement may become tiring rather quickly. e.g., In the first video you showed, holding your hand out for extended period is not practical.

It is probably better to build new games for casuals (They'll need to adjust many stats to tone down the difficulty).

However if it is painted in the context of exercise, then it would be a perfect fit. Instead of watching informercials and soap operas while jogging, they can map their daily exercise routines into a game.


Navigating menus in a controller free manner would be very useful. I think the media player application will be a hit.

This is the main reason I really want Natal. Any other stuff like games etc are added benefit for me.

 

[patsu]

Yes, I believe MS should (will ?) add HDMI CEC to the new 360 too, so you may be able to control the entire Home theater with it.

For those in Seattle who want to experienve Move:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/04/02/hey-seattle-come-try-out-playstation-move/

We’ll be at Sole Repair Shop (near downtown and Seattle U) this coming Thursday evening, armed with food, drinks, and state-of-the-art motion-based gaming; that’s *months* before PlayStation Move will show up in stores, so don’t miss out on your opportunity!

 

[eloic]

2D cameras can't track a jab straight into the screen, or a block's position as to whether the opponent can get their hand behind. Sure, you could create fighting games of a sort, but that's true of pretty much every game - you tailor it to the available resources.

Well, TBH I didn't factor lag in. At the end of the day if lag is significant for Natal, it doesn't much matter how good the 3D and skeletal tracking is, the games will be seriously gimped as to what you can do.

Exactly. That's why I said "except for "accurate 1:1 boxing/fighting games"" (mentioning your example).

Tech demos from a company called Softkinetic, they show a middleware to navigate through 3d environments and even controlling a fps (quake 2) with nothing but your body.

Nice find. Those videos are old but they match NATAL's purposes.

However, I agree with patsu and here we are discussing again what I said in my first post: can you do something with NATAL? Yes. Is it practical and convincing in gaming? We'll see (I'm sure some ideas are, though). Is that revolutionary? I don't think so...

 

[patsu]

Financial Times interviewed Peter Dille:
http://blogs.ft.com/techblog/2010/04/ps3s-time-is-now-says-sony/

With motion controllers how are you going to differentiate Move from the Wii Motion plus and Project Natal for the Xbox 360?

We’ve spent a lot of time on that over the last couple of weeks and the biggest differentiator is the technology itself - the Wii has been wildly successful but at the end of the day it’s not a very precise experience and it relies on the wand. Microsoft’s’s approach appears to be no wand, no controller, just a camera, which means that your body’s the user interface. Our solution and point of differentiation is around precision, because we’ve got the camera - the Playstation Eye - and the motion controller which has the light at the tip, and the camera tracks the light very precisely in 3D space. The combination of that precision along with the button on the controller means that you’re now able to develop and play games that you can’t do with the Wii and Natal. That level of precision gives you different types of experiences like a [first-person] shooter and we can do casual games as well. So we’ll have family-friendly games like ping pong or archery, to games for young kids likeiPet , which is a very creative game. It’s a virtual pet you nurture and it comes out to play with you on your carpet using the Eye. You can give it commands, you can pet it and it will respond, you can give it tasks, it will fly a plane. We got a tremendous response to it from retailers we showed it to at Destination PlayStation.

Hard-core gamers have looked down their nose at motion gaming: it’s not particularly satisfying for them because it’s not terribly precise or challenging, it’s more social. So we’ll have games that the whole family can play that are very social , but we’ll also be able to do hard-core gamer games via a motion device that has never been done before. It’s too early to say what the killer app or signature game is but we’ll continue through the spring and late summer before we make a decision on which game is the poster child or the best one to move the Move.

I think Peter Dille made a huge mistake.

When talking about precision and core gaming, Move's competitor is the traditional controller. It is not very useful to talk about core gaming w.r.t. Wii and Natal. Neither are proven in that area. By comparing with them, Sony achieved nothing. They need to be able to prove that Move is better than the traditional controller. Or Move enhances the traditional controller. Precision may not be a benefit when compared to DS3 (Unless it's something as good as the mouse & keyboard).

Then when competing in the natural interfaces/augmented reality space, they need to show sexy and new stuff. Precision has no place here (Perhaps it's a combination of simplicitiy/intuition, WYSIWYG, and fantasy/vision). Something like the sketch recognition would fit. They should really build on top of the EyeToy/PS Eye experiences, instead of abandon them. I have no idea why they ignored the tank demo and did the EyePet flying plane/moving car mini-game. The latter is not exciting at all since you can't do anything useful/meaningful with them. Showing Wii-like games and then say Move is more than Wii is also silly. Letting the users experience Move themselves is great, but the impact will be small.

If they can't decide what's/who's the poster child by now, they have already lost the vision and future. At this late stage, they need to know what to shoot for, and go for it. Kinda like the KZ2 trailer vs KZ2 final game. Set a vision and go. That vision should be the total package of Move + PS Eye + other sauces to provide a unique and entertaining experiences for gamers and their families.

 

[Nesh]

Financial Times interviewed Peter Dille:
http://blogs.ft.com/techblog/2010/04/ps3s-time-is-now-says-sony/



I think Peter Dille made a huge mistake.

When talking about precision and core gaming, Move's competitor is the traditional controller. It is not very useful to talk about core gaming w.r.t. Wii and Natal. Neither are proven in that area. By comparing with them, Sony achieved nothing. They need to be able to prove that Move is better than the traditional controller. Or Move enhances the traditional controller. Precision may not be a benefit when compared to DS3 (Unless it's something as good as the mouse & keyboard).

Then when competing in the natural interfaces/augmented reality space, they need to show sexy and new stuff. Precision has no place here (Perhaps it's a combination of simplicitiy/intuition, WYSIWYG, and fantasy/vision). Something like the sketch recognition would fit. They should really build on top of the EyeToy/PS Eye experiences, instead of abandon them. I have no idea why they ignored the tank demo and did the EyePet flying plane/moving car mini-game. The latter is not exciting at all since you can't do anything useful/meaningful with them. Showing Wii-like games and then say Move is more than Wii is also silly. Letting the users experience Move themselves is great, but the impact will be small.

If they can't decide what's/who's the poster child by now, they have already lost the vision and future. At this late stage, they need to know what to shoot for, and go for it. Kinda like the KZ2 trailer vs KZ2 final game. Set a vision and go. That vision should be the total package of Move + PS Eye + other sauces to provide a unique and entertaining experiences for gamers and their families.

I dont think he made a mistake. He was clear.

He said Move is a new(ish) experience which not only can appeal to casual gamers, but to hardcore gamers as well which is (a possible) advantage over the other motion sensing solutions. Pretty logical

It is not trying to replace the standard controller anyways. They already said in an interview or two that they want to retain both experiences since they still believe that the standard method is also needed

I as a hardcore gamer I am interested to see if it can appeal to me so that I have that experience as well.

 

[patsu]

I dont think he made a mistake. He was clear.

He said Move is a new(ish) experience which not only can appeal to casual gamers, but to hardcore gamers as well which is (a possible) advantage over the other motion sensing solutions. Pretty logical

For outsiders, Move is not new. After looking at the videos, most will still conclude that it's Wiimote+

For hardcore gamers, the overwhelming majority are still entrenched in DS3. They didn't complain about the controller, except for the convex triggers. Talking about possible advantages and precision in Move means nothing to them. They are not going to switch for no apparent reasons. Curious people like us will try, but that's not the same as converting us.

That's why the most likely outcome is he has made a mistake.

It is not trying to replace the standard controller anyways. They already said in an interview or two that they want to retain both experiences since they still believe that the standard method is also needed

Then the new controller will have very limited impact given the current message. They didn't even talk about hardcore (DS3) + casual gamers (Move) co-op using Move. The Move demoes they show now look more like filler games for core gamers, than real casual games -- except for EyePet.

If they restrict their user experience to merely Wiimote+/Move-like motion tracking -- specifically precision -- then they are shortchanging themselves.

 

[Elan Tedronai]

For outsiders, Move is not new. After looking at the videos, most will still conclude that it's Wiimote+

For hardcore gamers, the overwhelming majority are still entrenched in DS3. They didn't complain about the controller, except for the convex triggers. Talking about possible advantages and precision in Move means nothing to them. They are not going to switch for no apparent reasons. Curious people like us will try, but that's not the same as converting us.

That's why the most likely outcome is he has made a mistake.



Then the new controller will have very limited impact given the current message. They didn't even talk about hardcore (DS3) + casual gamers (Move) co-op using Move. The Move demoes they show now look more like filler games for core gamers, than real casual games -- except for EyePet.

If they restrict their user experience to merely Wiimote+/Move-like motion tracking -- specifically precision -- then they are shortchanging themselves.

indeed. it's really laughable that at this stage of the game they haven't really found a software or a killer app to get behind. I mean the augmented reality stuff is easily the best thing about the whole controller. It's blatantly obvious.

And going after hardcore gamers with the move is simply short changing as you put it. They need nintendo's casual audience and the move has that potential. It's up to sony to come up with killer software that can take advantage of it.

They need to hit a homerun right away. Trying to rely on second generation software will kill any momentum when the Move launches