Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[patsu]

My guess is this:

Testing the water with angry obsessive game nerds?

[size=-2]muahaha[/size]

 

[ShadowWolf64]

Im not liking the design of the Move as it looks too much like a wiimote but is a little bit more accurate..

 

[ShadowRunner]

The ping pong game is probably the best thing they showed by far. Id say it looks to be the best ping pong game ever, not saying much but atleast its something

Its the only thing i saw that id say is not possible on any other system. It looks like just another Wii game at first but when you realise the guy has full control of the virtual paddle in 3d space it really is impressive, atleast to me anyhow. Definately has potential.

[gt]62931[/gt]

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Im not liking the design of the Move as it looks too much like a wiimote...

Well they're kinda limited in options! I feel they've managed to differentiate quite well considering the interface mechanics are identical. Where Wiimote looks a lot like a remote, Move has a more controller-like design. The only other solution I can see would be a cylinder, more lightsabre-ish.

 

[thop]

No motion detection in the subcontroller.

http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98060.html
http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98061.html

Also no 4P gaming?

Up to two motion controllers and two sub controllers can be connected at once to the PS3™ system.

Or only without sub controllers.

Up to Four motion controllers can be connected at once to the PS3™ system.

 

[patsu]

Well they're kinda limited in options! I feel they've managed to differentiate quite well considering the interface mechanics are identical. Where Wiimote looks a lot like a remote, Move has a more controller-like design. The only other solution I can see would be a cylinder, more lightsabre-ish.

Not just look. It feels similar partly also because the presentation didn't highlight the differences enough, and most of the software didn't have any surprises. ^_^

PCs and Macs, iPhones and Androids may look the "same" externally, but many people perceive them differently.

If they have spare resources, they should do a PSEye only tool/feature as well. EyePet would be a good example.

No motion detection in the subcontroller.

http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98060.html
http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98061.html

Also no 4P gaming?

Or only without sub controllers.

Interesting. Perhaps they want to manage the wireless channel bandwidth (lag) ? Tracking 4 main controllers should be more CPU intensive than tracking 2 controllers + 2 subcontrollers.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I hope we hear about a Natal boxing game. Eurogamers review of Move's fighter says is guesture based rather than 1:1, with buttons to execute moves. Natal should manage true player tracking and give a much more realistic experience.

I wouldn't be surprised if first efforts at something like that (if there is one for Launch) would use quick and dirty canned movements triggered by player movement in order to save dev time balancing and creating AI to deal with 1:1 movements.

I'm expecting most of the Launch titles to be more simplistic with later titles (and more dev time) exploring 1:1 movements more fully.

Regards,
SB

 

[(((interference)))]

So was this the launch? It's pretty underwhelming if it was.

Gizmodo says the Move is going to be a pretty expensive proposition, which might hamper it's casual appeal (unlike Natal where you just need the one camera)

And there's also no full support for 4 players

You're limited to 4 Move controllers or 2 move controllers + 2 sub controllers. Unlike the Wii where you can have 4 wiimotes + nunchaks

All in all, from a casual perspective the Move will look like a rather clunky affair and not really all that different from the Wii.
Natal seems far more elegant and fresh, does anyone believe the system is actually much improved (lag & precision wise) from the iteration they've been demonstrating as Molyneux claimed?

 

[thop]

Microsoft can apparently only track two players, so their numbers are a bit wrong.

But you can still use regular controllers in addition to that, so theoretically up to 6 players. This doesn't seem to be possible with Sony. Nintendo supports up to 8 players, with 4 Gamecube controllers, which a few games like Bomberman actually use.

 

[patsu]

I wouldn't be surprised if first efforts at something like that (if there is one for Launch) would use quick and dirty canned movements triggered by player movement in order to save dev time balancing and creating AI to deal with 1:1 movements.

I'm expecting most of the Launch titles to be more simplistic with later titles (and more dev time) exploring 1:1 movements more fully.

Ideally, I'd love to see a close combat game like this:

The baseline is true 1-1 mapping (accurately tracking your chops). If this part is done well, the game may appear to be responsive and fluidal. A casual observer would marvel at the precision. There is not much high level interpretation (It's as easy as Dr. Marks spinning his sword in the tech demo). To make the gameplay more interesting at this level, the developers may vary the strength of each punch/slice by the swing speed, assuming the motion sensor is sensitive enough. It would allow my son to play with me since he will swing his arms randomly and at fearsome speed anyway. Any perceived lag at this stage is not so good.

Now to make things more interesting, the developers may introduce timing skills (button presses for massive damage to crabs and non-crabs).

Then to make things even more interesting, the developers may introduce weapons. A Dragonbone Smasher would have intentional lag since it's heavier and more powerful. But since this is a user chosen feature, they would understand the lag even though they may b*tch about it.

Finally, for the moves that require high level interpretations (i.e. gesture-based spells and special abilities), these will necessarily be laggy too since the game needs to wait for the user to [almost] finish his move before recognizing the pattern. I would reserve these for some crazy critical hits and one-hit kills. In the mean time, I'll need to sustain damage dealt by the opponent. As I execute my gesture, it would be nice to build up the atmosphere too (like count down, changing light colors, showing lightning and swirling leaves/cloud as I swing my controller).

If they have something like this, my son and I will probably spend the whole weekend playing until my back breaks.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it. I know how my son would counter my killer move. He'll just abort the game, and run to the back room to get his mom. Normal players won't have this master stroke (Mom not included).

 

[obonicus]

So was this the launch? It's pretty underwhelming if it was.

It's the reveal. The launch would suggest the product is in stores.

Gizmodo says the Move is going to be a pretty expensive proposition, which might hamper it's casual appeal (unlike Natal where you just need the one camera)

The depths of whose ass did Gizmondo plumb for that chart? This is enough of a news clusterf* enough without Kotaku's slower brother pulling stuff out of thin air.

Natal seems far more elegant and fresh,

This from your extensive hands-on experience with it, right? We know only slightly more about Natal than we did at E3 last year. People thought the Wand would be precise and fast back then, too.

does anyone believe the system is actually much improved (lag & precision wise) from the iteration they've been demonstrating as Molyneux claimed?

I think it's quite possible, but Molyneux will say anything. It'd take his word plus detailed impressions of the final product from multiple independent websites for me to even start to have an opinion on Natal. (Beyond my general opinion on motion controls, of course.)

 

[(((interference)))]

It's the reveal. The launch would suggest the product is in stores.


The depths of whose ass did Gizmondo plumb for that chart? This is enough of a news clusterf* enough without Kotaku's slower brother pulling stuff out of thin air.



This from your extensive hands-on experience with it, right? We know only slightly more about Natal than we did at E3 last year. People thought the Wand would be precise and fast back then, too.

Well, read the article, it isn't unbelievable.

I don't think anyone could argue that the Natal concept is more elegant and innovative than the Move. Whether it works is a different matter.

 

[corduroygt]

1. No reason why Move should cost more than the Wii motion+. I believe they'll be priced identically.
2. Move vs. Natal could not have been a better demonstration of Sony vs Microsoft, or Tech. vs. Presentation. Sony console has the superior tech, has drop dead gorgeous exclusives, yet they can't have party chat, automatic install (seriously why can't it automatically install the downloaded files without resorting to the shut down option), discless Netflix etc. MS has cheaper less capable hardware yet Live and the software interface is very good at making you feel a part of the community. In motion controls, Move is supremely capable without polish, while Natal is all about polish.

 

[patsu]

automatic install (seriously why can't it automatically install the downloaded files without resorting to the shut down option)

Eh... If you don't put your download into background mode, the install is automatic. I don't know why install is a separate step for background download. May be a security feature ? (to prevent automated patch without user approval).

If you leave your download in the background, you don't have to shutdown after install. It's an option (e.g., Need to upgrade PS3 while you're out of the house).

 

[obonicus]

Well, read the article, it isn't unbelievable.

No, but it's still made up. You don't need a blogger to dream up some math using made-up numbers, we have people local to B3D who can do a great job of that.

I don't think anyone could argue that the Natal concept is more elegant and innovative than the Move. Whether it works is a different matter.

Innovative I'll give you. Sony is aping the Wii here shamelessly, this is their attempt not to be left out of the loop, to get some of that casual appeal to their console. But innovation for innovation's sake doesn't impress me. Move was Sony's chance to to iterate on the Wiimote's design and deliver something that might have interested me. Pre-alpha software and all that, but it doesn't seem like they've succeeded -- and more importantly, I don't think success by my metric is high on their list considering what Sony is trying to do.

Elegance, though? The Move has buttons, I like buttons. I find the regular controller far more 'elegant' than kludgy motion controls. But then I think the premise that ordinary gamers are scared away by controllers to be overly simplistic -- I think most of the blame lies on the games.

 

[patsu]

Well, read the article, it isn't unbelievable.

I don't think anyone could argue that the Natal concept is more elegant and innovative than the Move. Whether it works is a different matter.

I think that's partly because Sony (as usual) break up their features into fragments/silos: PSEye and Move, whereas MS lumps all the natural interfaces under one Natal umbrella. There are features in PSEye that are really sophisticated and out already (controller-free stuff demoed by the Milo concept video), but it's counted out when people just look at Move.

Sony am stupid.

Once they start breaking up their own stuff, they are already inferior. e.g., the Move pricing includes a PSEye, which has its own family of possibilities and software (including the free EyeCreate), compared to Wii.

[size=-2]I have a feeling someone in Sony marketing work(s) for their competition. They under-sell their engineers' hard work. They make their products look a lot smaller than what they really are.[/size]

 

[Butta]

If this source that someone at IGN talked is right then ouch about motion control on PS3 and 360:

GDC 10 Raw: One Man's Account
Editor-at-Large Matt Casamassina dishes the dirt on the behind-the-scenes murmurings at the event.
by Matt Casamassina
March 11, 2010 - Every game show has its own identity. The Electronic Entertainment Expo is a blockbuster event -- a collective stage for companies to debut and advertise their wares. Big news or no news all surrounded in spectacular light shows and music so thumping loud it drowns out thought. DICE has become the annual epicenter of deal brokerage -- the meeting place developers go to pitch and publishers to sign games. And the Game Developers Conference has some of that, too. But at least this year, it was also about getting jobs. Seemingly smaller in scope and less cocky all around. Depressingly, lots of people both young and new to the industry were either looking for work or struggling to hang on to it. A sign of the times, maybe -- the recession has certainly had its impact on videogames, just like any other industry.

Still, GDC continues to house some great panels and lots of behind-the-scenes goings-on. Game-makers still hole up in hotel suites armed only with rented flat-screen televisions and development hardware, and they take meetings with potential partners all day long. Publishers do the same thing, only reversed. And everybody has an opinion about something -- a game, an industry figure -- or a rumor to pass along, unsubstantiated but interesting nevertheless.

For me, GDC is a chance to catch up with people in development or publishing and possibly see games that won't be formally announced for several months if not longer. Then, inevitably, I have to think about ways to secure the exclusives on these games without admitting to the aforementioned developers and publishers that I am actually aware of their existence, have seen or maybe even played them. Imagine a call to a public relations person with a pitch that begins, "So, I'm not saying you're doing this, but if you were going to announce [X] at E3, just wanted you to know that..." You get the picture.

Ultimately, early meetings like these afford me and every other writer in the industry with contacts unfettered insight into some of the games and hardware cooking. Sometimes, the information is good and other times it's just conjecture or hope in disguise. Prior to the launch of GameCube, I remember developers telling me that it was going to be a far superior system to Xbox despite Microsoft's added horsepower because the GCN architecture allowed for better data bandwidth. Needless to say, that never really panned out. Without multiple verifications or the official confirmation, it's not always easy to separate fact from fiction, but I usually find that there's some truth to most persistent rumors, however exaggerated or warped the end information.

So I'm relaxing on a couch in a high-rise suite as a developer offers me a glimpse of its new game, still unannounced but very exciting. We get to talking about Sony's motion controller, recently unveiled. I played with it at publisher's event and as something of a Wii veteran with a firm understanding of how pointer and gestural controls work and how games should feel when they are properly finessed. I'm not impressed, I say. PS3 Move features almost no latency -- just one frame -- but that paper truth didn't seem to translate to reality as I played with the controller at Sony's event. Most of the stuff played like first-generation Wii efforts from third-parties.

Obviously, I'm not making games and I'm sure some software creators will note that with the roll of the eyes and claim that it's all too easy for me to bitch and moan from the backseat, or the sidelines, as it were. But playing the armchair role for a minute, it seems an unavoidable conclusion to me that Sony should have at least examined the very best genre-leaders on Nintendo's platform and then duplicated if not surpassed them with its own Move-controlled experiences. For instance, Medal of Honor, The Conduit and Red Steel 2 offer fantastic controls for first-person shooters. Anything less than these will be considered substandard by the informed masses -- at least those with knowledge of Wii's library. Unfortunately, Move doesn't yet compete. The company's shooter feels laggy and unresponsive as I attempt to gun down robotic targets. The boxing game is not one-to-one, but gestural-based, and slow. Nearly everything feels redone, but somehow half-baked.

The exceptions are the augmented reality games, which project gameplay graphics onto real-time views of players using Sony's camera. These are all flimsy affairs -- mini-games of the sort that sold Wii consoles three years ago, but as I watch people having fun while they shave the heads of goofy virtual monsters, I can't help but think how much my kids are going to love this stuff. It's fluffy, sure, but families will eat it up and there's just enough freshness that critics like me can't say that Sony copied Nintendo, at least not blatantly. Just as importantly, it's responsive and it feels good.

Move's hardware is more than competent and there's certainly a lot of potential, but most of it remained untapped at the event. This opinion is seconded by the developer, which is working closely with the device. They tell me that they believe it will ultimately outperform the Wii remote in responsiveness and say that their own tests are already proving that true. I ask if there is the kind of lag I experienced at Sony's demo and they say no, that it's very fast and reliable when programmed correctly. They add that it still has some calibration issues like the Wii remote, but that it's still an improvement.

Natal, though -- the motion offering from Microsoft -- not so much. The same studio rep calls Natal a big, buggy mess. "It's sh*t," he adds, saying that it just doesn't work as promised. That it's slow and that the camera is imprecise, which he notes, is causing some major development woes.

He refers to a development conference Microsoft held not so long ago in which Peter Molyneux of Fable fame (presently, creative director at Microsoft Game Studios) took the stage and attempted to demo the publisher's much-publicized Milo Natal project. Molyneux apparently called someone from the audience to the stage and asked them to interact with the virtual boy, but it didn't go to plan. Natal's camera failed to see the person accurately because he was wearing a black trench coat. After some fiddling, he was asked to remove his trench coat and -- whoops -- wore a black shirt underneath. When it still didn't work, he was invited to take his seat again.

Next, Molyneux said that Milo could interact with illustrations drawn to paper and scanned by the camera. He asked the audience for suggestions. "You could see him cocking his head and listening for the right key words, and then finally he heard something the game would recognize," my development source explains. It was a cat. So he invited someone from the audience to ascend the steps to the stage and illustrate the feline on paper. When Natal attempted to scan the horribly scribbled drawing, it instead picked up the Abercrombie & Fitch logo on the person's sweater.

I laugh at this but try to play devil's advocate. Okay, I say, so it's obvious you're not a fan, but somebody must be getting this thing to work well or it wouldn't be on the slate to ship this year. I ask if he knows of any other studios struggling with Natal.

"How about Rare and Lionhead? They're just going to try to make launch and then they're going to patch everything later," he says, laughing.

I'm very interested in the platform, but I haven't entrenched myself in Natal development. Later, when I bump into a colleague, I ask them if they have heard any behind-the-scenes rumblings about development trouble with Microsoft's casual entry device. He turns to me and says that yes, he has -- that studios are telling him they're struggling to get it working.

It's anecdotal and unproven and I know from experience that it's never so black and white. The fact of the matter is, the Wii remote shipped with so many problems that Nintendo was forced to release an upgrade device that even needs constant recalibration. And Wii MotionPlus? Word on the street is that the heat from your hands de-calibrates the sensor. It's still not perfect by any means, but it's workable, and I think that by the time Natal ships, it will be workable too, even if developers have to kill themselves getting it there. Lest we not forget that there are some amazing games for Wii and whether by ingenuity or simple trickery, the motion controls sometimes feel fantastic.

What I do find very telling about both some of these public unveilings and secret murmurings, however, is just how difficult it seems to be to nail motion controls. People love to shrug off Nintendo's work. Hell, I've done it. But for all the primitive graphics surrounding the Wii Sports experience, there's some pretty fancy handiwork powering the gameplay controls -- and I think Microsoft and Sony are only now discovering just how fancy it really is.

Speaking of Nintendo, everyone seems to be waiting for word on the company's next system. It's the go-to question in interviews. "Yes, I understand Wii sold a bazillion units in December alone, but hey -- when's Wii HD coming?" Yeah -- I'm guilty of that one, too. And it's no different when I talk to developers and publishers, nearly all of whom receive the obligatory query about new hardware -- what and when? I always resign myself to the no comment or the no idea, but at GDC I struck a bit of a niblet when a developer said Nintendo told him it would be ready to roll with Wii 2 in 2012. Anybody with a brain would probably guess as much, but it is even so always refreshing to hear so from a semi-official source.

Of course, the NPD numbers just hit and the Wii dominance is at an end. Outsold in February by Xbox 360, ending a forever-long winning streak. And PS3 was not far behind, either. We'll just have to see if Nintendo isn't willing to move that date forward.

Takeaways so far: Sony has made a dildo-controller that feels like a gimped Wii remote. Natal sucks. And Wii 2 is in no rush. At least, that's how it goes in pure black and white and if you believe everything you hear at this year's Game Developers Conference. Of course, if you do, then maybe you'll also believe that GameCube's fill rate is much better than Xbox's and therefore Nintendo's hardware is superior. Right?

 

[obonicus]

Cassamassina was in love with the Conduit, so I'd take his opinions with a lump of salt. The developer comments are interesting, but anonymous impressions aren't worth that much either. For all we know he's talking to someone who's never made a good game.

 

[AzBat]

1. No reason why Move should cost more than the Wii motion+. I believe they'll be priced identically.

The one issue here is that the PSEye isn't included with every PS3 like the sensor bar is with the Wii. Plus, the PSEye isn't some kind of cheap piece of equipment like the sensor bar. I believe that extra cost is one thing that will be a big stumbling block for Move compared to Wii. Existing Wii & Xbox 360 owners who already have a sizable investment in games & accessories might be put off by another sizable investment needed to get the full experience. I know I am be since I have no investment in either a Wii or PS3.

IMHO, my biggest complaint I have with the system is that damn colored sphere! Get rid of that dorky thing & the required PSEye while you're at it.

Other issues I have...

No gyro or rumble in the sub-controller:

-No off-hand gyro: The Wii Nunchuk has a sensor that detects motion, more crudely than does the Remote. The PS3's version of the Nunchuk, does not have a motion sensor, according to a developer I was speaking to. There's a chance that is not final, but that is the case with the controllers at Sony's showcase event today. But that's why two-handed boxing-style games were shown with two Moves. On the Wii, those kinds of games are handled, with supposedly less precision, with a Remote and Nunchuk.

http://kotaku.com/5490574/how-the-playstation-move-is-not-a-wii-remote

There are no motion sensors inside the sub-controller, and from what we can tell there's no rumble either, though we couldn't get a straight "no" on that.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/11/playstation-move-everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

What the heck is that 2nd connector called EXT?

Tommy McClain

 

[bkilian]

Honestly, only the faithful will shift to playing FPS on this. The rest of us at best will try it out and then go to a scheme that doesn't involve moving our arms around as much. And as I said earlier, this will be Sony's strategy. Grabbing Wii ports and having developers implement wand controls as a gimmick in 3rd party games.

It's like E3 2009 all over again. None of us cared for motion controls before, why suddenly this pretense that it's the true path to amazing gameplay?

Actually that's a net win for Sony. Even if you only use the controller once, you've still bought it, and you can bet they'll be making a profit on it.