Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Danalys]

I mean the sloshing paint at a wall versus signing your name alone should tell you everything you need to know. Maybe I just find engineers endearing but those actual game play demos were far more impressive as a proof of concept than the seemingly pointless, and ultimately faked Milo demo.

There was a really nice reaction to the writing from the audience. details like that impress those that dream of what they or others can do with that precision for gameplay.

I think part of Wii's success and part of Natal's hype is the inaccuracy. the average person isn't good at stuff, and if you give them something accurate enough to show their faults up they wont like it.

 

[rabidrabbit]

I figure to them a modern Eye toy like game would look like Sony playing me too, even though they were first in some regards. Seeing a representation of you on screen from an angle you would normally see a game character from makes a difference and Sony didn't do that with Eye toy. Even though they could have put a see through silhouette up, that wouldn't have been as impressive as seeing the on screen characters arms out in front of it if placed there by the player.

They did already, with Ps2 and the first Eye Toy in 2004.
There was a game in Eye Toy Play where you played as a goalie, very similar to what Microsoft showed with Natal... on year 2009.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think the thing missing from the Natal demo is the affect of 3D motion and postion on the balls. It looks like all you need do is put a bodu part in front of the ball for it to bounce off. A simpler game more like volleyball or such would allow us to appreciate the ability to apply variable force (Z-axis velocity) and direction to a target.

 

[Danalys]

They did already, with Ps2 and the first Eye Toy in 2004.
There was a game in Eye Toy Play where you played as a goalie, very similar to what Microsoft showed with Natal... on year 2009.

Couldn't find a video of that but I found this video of the Nights games from the Sega Superstars Eye toy game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHlVLWepVk&NR=1

Sort of comparable to the Burnout demo.

 

[Danalys]

I think the thing missing from the Natal demo is the affect of 3D motion and postion on the balls. It looks like all you need do is put a bodu part in front of the ball for it to bounce off. A simpler game more like volleyball or such would allow us to appreciate the ability to apply variable force (Z-axis velocity) and direction to a target.

I'm not sure it will be able to apply direction accurately enough. I think it'll be more like Eye toy but being able to hit things with your hand in front of your body rather than just around it, and since z position is more accurate your timing and position will have to be more accurate.

 

[patsu]

I think part of Wii's success and part of Natal's hype is the inaccuracy. the average person isn't good at stuff, and if you give them something accurate enough to show their faults up they wont like it.

Depends on the game. e.g., From what I hear, people actually like the more accurate Wiimote+ Tennis game compared to the original Wiimote Tennis game. I'd imagine Golf is the same if they can capture the Golf swing "correctly". In the Wiimote Golf game, I know people who lose interests immediately once they found out that you can T-off the ball by just "twitching" your wrist abruptly. Others will simply continue to do the Golf swing motion even after they found out the "short cut".

OTOH, there are some games where the accuracy doesn't matter. For these games, it may not matter much whether the developer are given accurate 2D or 3D tracking info (e.g., the body flailing demo).

 

[Danalys]

Sure there are people who prefer more accurate, but you lose the older/younger people who can't perform the accurate movement, and the immediacy of not needing much practice that leads things to be party games. These are the elements that have pushed Wii above and beyond in sales.

If the mems were ready at the time they could have made it more accurate and just used software interpretation of control to make it easy in standard play I guess.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm not sure it will be able to apply direction accurately enough. I think it'll be more like Eye toy but being able to hit things with your hand in front of your body rather than just around it, and since z position is more accurate your timing and position will have to be more accurate.

It may not be particularly accurate, but there should be a sense of directionality with the impacts for Natal to show what it offers beyond existing camera methods. Besides, I think a derived impact vector should be pretty accurate. The hand positioned sampled between two points will give an okay trajectory to apply an impulse to the ball.

Thinking about it now, if it were me designing a demo, I'd probably go with spawning a VR ball on the left hand which can be moved into positon, and then whacked (or poked, to exhibit Natal's Z-velocity reading) with the right hand at targets.

 

[patsu]

Sure there are people who prefer more accurate, but you lose the older/younger people who can't perform the accurate movement, and the immediacy of not needing much practice that leads things to be party games. These are the elements that have pushed Wii above and beyond in sales.

Yes, it depends on the game, which means we can have party games for casuals and sports/skills games for more competitive people. As you mentioned, if the hardware can deliver accurate data, then it's up to the software to decide what they want to do (e.g., switch to different game mode, or difficulty level).

EDIT: At some level, it's also about the immersiveness, I am not sure whether there is a clean match between party games and skill games vs loose and accurate tracking. Sometimes, a party game may want accurate tracking to surface the true nuances, but adopt less stringent judging (e.g. art performance).

 

[Danalys]

It may not be particularly accurate, but there should be a sense of directionality with the impacts for Natal to show what it offers beyond existing camera methods. Besides, I think a derived impact vector should be pretty accurate. The hand positioned sampled between two points will give an okay trajectory to apply an impulse to the ball.

Thinking about it now, if it were me designing a demo, I'd probably go with spawning a VR ball on the left hand which can be moved into positon, and then whacked (or poked, to exhibit Natal's Z-velocity reading) with the right hand at targets.

Some kind of virtual football (soccer) would be impressive. Just shifting the virtual ball around. That's more of an engineers demonstration to developers though.

 

[scently]

So you guys really believe Natal is just another PSeye? Because if it is then why are the press, the media, consumers and even the developers so excited about it.
Why is it that Sony never made something similar to what I see Natal doing.
Even if PSeye came out earlier, it means absolutely nothing if the potential was never fully realized.
Apple is being hailed as the company that brought touchscreen to mobile phones but that is not really the case, instead it is because they got it right and as such they deserve that praise.
Give credit where it's due and respect to those that deserve it.

 

[patsu]

So you guys really believe Natal is just another PSeye? Because if it is then why are the press, the media, consumers and even the developers so excited about it.

No. I am saying the flailing body demo is not a good indication of Natal's true capability. The PS2 EyeToy game can achieve something similar with lesser and potentially faster tech on PS3. MS should pick something else, especially at launch.

Why is it that Sony never made something similar to what I see Natal doing.

Which part ? and which part of the world are you in ? I don't think SCEA pushed EyeToy hard.

Even if PSeye came out earlier, it means absolutely nothing if the potential was never fully realized.
Apple is being hailed as the company that brought touchscreen to mobile phones but that is not really the case, instead it is because they got it right and as such they deserve that praise.
Give credit where it's due and respect to those that deserve it.

Yes, but I haven't seen a "got it right case" for Natal's public demoes yet (because they keep showing the same flailing body demo). The green screen stuff has potential but I have not seen any follow-up. Would like to see how well their newer tech demoes work. As I said, when these are available, I fully expect the flinging arm thing to take lesser role.

 

[Danalys]

So you guys really believe Natal is just another PSeye? Because if it is then why are the press, the media, consumers and even the developers so excited about it.
Why is it that Sony never made something similar to what I see Natal doing.
Even if PSeye came out earlier, it means absolutely nothing if the potential was never fully realized.
Apple is being hailed as the company that brought touchscreen to mobile phones but that is not really the case, instead it is because they got it right and as such they deserve that praise.
Give credit where it's due and respect to those that deserve it.

The first three groups is argumentum ad populum, the last group (developers) would be interested because they can make money of the first three.

Natal is better than PSeye we've mentioned the reasons why.

 

[Iron Tiger]

The external camera is only to determine 3D position; Arc orientation is determined by internal MEMS. Motion with Arc need not be any more tiring than Warhawk's flight controls, which isn't tiring at all in my experience. Obviously some games will be far more demanding, but there's no intrinsic flaw to Arc's design that leads inevitably to tiring gaming. At the moment, Natal is only being shown with larger movements, which suggests subtler controls (a la Warhawk) aren't possible. However, combine Natal with a controller and it could well have many of the bases covered. Then again, MS don't appear to be targeting the existing sit-down gamer with Natal, a demographic they already have a lot of appeal with in the current system. All that said, until we see more of the demos and examples, we can only guess what the intial experience is going to be like. It's quite possible for any device to come only with extreme waggle games and make a name for itself as an exhausting experience!

Moving a pointer across a 2D screen with a gyroscope is one thing, and I quite like it. But trying to control a 3D game with it is a nightmare.

The trouble is that there's no point of reference for relative positioning, so you need to be able to press a button or something to tell the system that you're physically moved beyond a viable region of dexterity or comfort, so that it can allow you to re-center. In 2D games, when you butt up to the edge of the screen, you can move back the other way as far as you need to to get yourself re-oriented. In 3D, there's no edge of the screen.

Having to press a button that stops your in-game movement to give you time to re-center is a gamebreaker. It will be interesting to see if the camera can be used to fix this.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It also seems to me a lot of the interest factor depends on one's experience with EyeToy. ET wasn't big in NA, meaning Natal is a lot fresher. For Europe, particularly the UK which already had a 'grannies playing computer games' campaign and media interest, Natal isn't as large a progress from what's already been experienced. This is mostly due to the choice of software by MS though IMO. And perhaps because us cynics weren't so wowed by Milo as we understood the smoke and mirrors invovled, whereas to Joe Public it seemed the woman demoing was interacting with a virtual boy.

 

[patsu]

Having to press a button that stops your in-game movement to give you time to re-center is a gamebreaker. It will be interesting to see if the camera can be used to fix this.

Yes. Do you have to recalibrate Wiimote+ after a swing ?

 

[Danalys]

Having to press a button that stops your in-game movement to give you time to re-center is a gamebreaker. It will be interesting to see if the camera can be used to fix this.

How's it more a game breaker than lifting your mouse of a table to re-center.

 

[scently]

But if was effective, very much so actually. Which is all they need to do at the time. It was a tech demo. And I haven't read any hands-on report that has a "meh,been there done that" tone to it. It is always a "wow this is really different, this is impressive" reaction all round.
If by e3, they don't show something new then we can crucify them.
My point is, even if it is not the best demo to advertise the product (which from what I have seen and read, it actually achieve in spades) they don't need to show their trumpcard so early.

 

[patsu]

How's it more a game breaker than lifting your mouse of a table to re-center.

The recalibration is the key because it is disruptive/intrusive.

I think lifting the mouse is ok because the mind doesn't seem to be aware of it during regular use (People understand that they have limited desktop space, the lifting doesn't seem to enter the conscious mind).

But if was effective, very much so actually. Which is all they need to do at the time. It was a tech demo. And I haven't read any hands-on report that has a "meh,been there done that" tone to it. It is always a "wow this is really different, this is impressive" reaction all round.

That's because they are talking about the umbrella Natal concept, not just the flailing body demo alone.

If by e3, they don't show something new then we can crucify them.
My point is, even if it is not the best demo to advertise the product (which from what I have seen and read, it actually achieve in spades) they don't need to show their trumpcard so early.

Why crucify them ? I am just saying the flailing body demo is insufficient.

 

[Danalys]

The recalibration is the key because it is disruptive/intrusive.

I think lifting the mouse is ok because the mind doesn't seem to be aware of it during regular use (People understand that they have limited desktop space).

People got used to doing it. So much it became second nature. People should also understand that they have limited arm rotation.

I actually remember using GEM on the ST and getting used to using a mouse.