Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Arwin]

I just watch part 3 dive into the E3 demo on the ps blog (which is the only psmc that I have ever watch)... the accuracy is nice, but what about the lag? do you think they can fix that?

I didn't see a lot of lag for the most part - otherwise the direct video overlay that they showed would be showing more problems. That said, there were a few instances where there was some slowdown. But that's it, I think: what you're seeing is some slowdown, but certainly not lag. Generally the tracking and controller input lag seems almost non-existant.

The new video doesn't seem to show a lot of new stuff by the way.

 

[obonicus]

I would like to know more about what happens when there's occlusion -- what if my hand covers the glowing bit, briefly? What if it's not so brief?

 

[Rurouni]

I would like to know more about what happens when there's occlusion -- what if my hand covers the glowing bit, briefly? What if it's not so brief?

Probably it would react the same as Wiimote (which I don't know how it would react)? They both measure the absolute position with a combination of camera and light spot so I believe they both should react the same way... probably can be predicted and compensated with the gyro/accelerometer if it just only for a brief moment. Maybe somebody already tested it on Wii?

 

[patsu]

There was an interview where someone mentioned briefly that it's possible to use the controller even when it's covered (may be not so accurately). If true, I think it may be using the last known absolute location followed by the controller's local motion tracking. When it's visible again, the thing can sync up with its new location. This will require accelerometer and gyro on the controller. However I am totally not sure and in fact can't find the link at all.

Here's another more realistic take:
http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,169398/printable.html

GO: ... Assuming SCE’s "wands" operate line-of-sight, how free will we be to move around? What's the virtual "box" size, roughly speaking in "real" space, that we'll be able to move about in?

RM: We specifically designed PlayStation Eye with a wide field of view (75 degrees). This means when you are 10 feet away from the camera, the range of motion is 12 feet across by 9 feet high.

 

[ShadowRunner]

I would like to know more about what happens when there's occlusion -- what if my hand covers the glowing bit, briefly? What if it's not so brief?

They can predict where the controller would be based on accelerometer readings. The longer the occlusion the less accurate the prediction. A brief occlusion shouldnt cause much issues. You would only experience reduced accuracy on the position of the device not the angle/rotation so it wouldnt effect things like pointing at all. It would essentially become a wiimote+ briefly...

 

[Brad Grenz]

Yeah, nothing new and they didn't even get into the cool sword fighting/archery demo. But every time I see the tech I'm really impressed by the choices they've made. They were absolutely right when talking about how deficient pointing alone is for the writing/drawing aspect. I actually thought the RTS showed this pretty well. Trying to draw a circle around the tanks didn't seem like a good way to go. Would have made more sense to use drag selecting like you do on the PC with a mouse. Would be faster and more reliable.

 

[Rurouni]

Btw, after I see that part 3 again, even the lag is present at the start of the demo. When the guys start talking and moving, you see his image in the tv have a bit of lag. I don't know if it's intentional or not... Are other demo exhibits this kind of lag too? I sure hope that it is something that can be eliminated (lag).

 

[Brad Grenz]

There is always going to be some lag. Movement can't be reflected instantaneously on screen. That's not physically possible. But input lag occurs in all games, with all controller technologies. It's only a matter of whether or not the time-lapse is too great to ignore or adapt to. The PSMC appears to offer very low latency input.

 

[patsu]

The perceived lag may not be caused by the controller. It's the video capture and rendering (from PS Eye perspective). If you look at the beginning of the trailer, Dr. Marks himself is lagging a wee bit in the LCD screen compared to his real self on the left (with or without the controller). ^_^

 

[Iron Tiger]

Probably it would react the same as Wiimote (which I don't know how it would react)? They both measure the absolute position with a combination of camera and light spot so I believe they both should react the same way... probably can be predicted and compensated with the gyro/accelerometer if it just only for a brief moment. Maybe somebody already tested it on Wii?

According to someone I spoke to from High Voltage Software, the Motion Plus deactivates after 8 seconds out of Sensor Bar range. I'd assume that's when in pointing mode, because you can take your time lining up shots in WSR Golf, with the camera facing straight down.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What lag?

There's significant lag, of the order of 200 ms by my guess, whenever you see the devs addressing the screen. In the very beginning, when Richard Marks is just facing a TV screen of himself, it's very apparent. Look when he extends his hand towards the screen at about 19 seconds ("You can see a video of me coming from the PlayStation Eye"). However, we don't know how much is caused by setup. eg. Is the TV in game mode, or adding lots of processing lag?

Still, at this point it's looking no better than Natal, and users sensitive to lag may find a bit of frustration shooting an arrow and then waiting a while for the actual game to register. Gamers are going to have to hope that things will be tighter when these devices launch.

 

[_phil_]

In the very beginning, when Richard Marks is just facing a TV screen of himself, it's very apparent

I don't know how this lag is induced ,but it looks like it only appears in the side view of Richard facing the TV.
Anyway ,this lag isn't there in my experienced reality.It feels really right : precise and responsive.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I don't know how this lag is induced ,but it looks like it only appears in the side view of Richard facing the TV.
Anyway ,this lag isn't there in my experienced reality.It feels really right : precise and responsive.

Well I think we have our answer regarding any input lag with the device :smile:.

Thanks for confirming Phil... that's good to know

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't know how this lag is induced ,but it looks like it only appears in the side view of Richard facing the TV.

The footage that shows the PSEye feed within the 'game' and the corresponding virtual objects is extremely good. The twisting of the controller impressed me. This system does look extremely promising, and I hope developers make good games out of it!

Anyway ,this lag isn't there in my experienced reality.It feels really right : precise and responsive.

That's what we want to hear!

As it look now, Natal seems better suited to 'non-gaming' games. Fitness and relaxing experiences and virtual/augmented reality things. PSM is looking great for extending gaming as we know it, with action games being more involved.

T'is an interesting time in gaming, making up for an otherwise dull couple of high-powered generic boxes that we started with.

 

[Iron Tiger]

I was thinking today, that Microsoft might not be showing all their cards. Both Sony and Nintendo have an advantage of tactility, where you can feel your input device, but perhaps Microsoft might also have a tactile controller in the works that lets you feel a fine degree of output as well. Seeing as how practically everybody is doing head tracking and whiteboard stuff now, that's probably very well-devoloped and in no need of heavy R&D. So why did MS hire Johnny Chung Lee? Maybe for this. Of course, the guy's an interfacing visionary, so he could be working on any number of things beyond our imagination.

 

[patsu]

Yap, that's my thought too. They won't sit around and let others have that advantage.

[size=-2]I am expecting great things to come from MS this TGS, both Natal and XBL.[/size]

 

[betan]

Tactile controller would be a step back from controllerless natal announcement.
Other options (sonic feedback etc) are inconvenient and expensive.

 

[E2K]

Eyetoy had fitness-type games.
So developers can always make controller-less games, even with the Sony motion controller-concept; because it consists of a PS Eye camera

 

[ShadowRunner]

Sony have said that they can do skeletal tracking. We need to see more about it to know if it work well enough to be a viable alternative to Natal, allowing most game concepts to be viable on both regardless of whether or not a controller must be held.

Natals big selling point and all marketing so far has been about being the only controller-less interface, i doubt thet will want to give this up even if games would be msotly better for it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Natals big selling point and all marketing so far has been about being the only controller-less interface, i doubt thet will want to give this up even if games would be msotly better for it.

Precisely, which I think would be a Bad Move. What's wrong with offering the best of all worlds? I would like to see props/controllers in Natal for more natural gaming for those games that will benefit, and of course controller-less gaming for the 'broader' market.