Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[tha_con]

What were you suggesting when you shared that gif and said you were pretty sure the demo was staged?

From what I've read, impressions have been good in general. There are issues that have been pointed out, that are worth discussing.

I'm suggesting that the stage demo was not authentic. That's it. There must have been reasons for that. It would make no logical sense to stage a demo if the product worked flawlessly.

For the rest of the posts, I'm simply not going to reply. I am, and always have been skeptic of this technology, and so far basic jumping, moving, and eye tracking doesn't convince me that it's here to stay, much less that I need to invest in it.

 

[liolio]

I'm suggesting that the stage demo was not authentic. That's it. There must have been reasons for that. It would make no logical sense to stage a demo if the product worked flawlessly.

Avoid what happened during Nintendo presentation?

For the rest of the posts, I'm simply not going to reply. I am, and always have been skeptic of this technology, and so far basic jumping, moving, and eye tracking doesn't convince me that it's here to stay, much less that I need to invest in it.

+1 I'm for one not questioning you reasons and the thread is still pretty clean so let's not get personal

 

[Delta9]

PS Move is looking great! It has a decent list with like 30 games and not just for the casual

Kinect was very bad IMO.I almost fell asleep watching its fitness game and it all was shovelware.

I could care less for Nintendo as it clearly centered around 7yr olds.

 

[zed]

I think there's absolutely zero justification for suggesting Kinect is fakery that doesn't work.

Oh it does work somewhat but what Ive said from day one is it wont work well enuf to use in most games.
Party + fitness etc games OK everything else not OK
I posted this in the Kinect Games thread only for my post to be deleted, someone replied yes everyone already knew that, I replied thats not true we've still got ppl believing that all manner of games are gonna be done with kinect. And low and behold Silent_Buddha said a couple of posts laster "oh itll be great if u could control RTS's with this"

The reason is cause 99% accuracy is not good enuf, its gotta be 100%, anything less than 100% in a FPS,platformer,driving whatever is just gonna piss the player off so much they wont play it.

I see they're talking about having forza4 controlled with kinetic, Im so confident of what Ive said all along that if this doesnt have the option to play with a normal controller (i.e. not only kinect only) Im willing to stick $100 on it, anyone wanna take my bet?
(crickets) come on anyone (please)

 

[Scott_Arm]

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...tm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

Good impressions of driving in Forza with Kinect, and some nice comments about recognition in Your Shape. Looks like Forza will provide Kinect as a driving option, but retain the option to play with a standard controller.

 

[joker454]

For me personally it has a lot to do with the confidence in their product.

On the show floor you simply couldn't miss Kinect, there were large booths of it everywhere and clearly marked, and anyone could gather around and watch all the games in action. That also let people see other companies interest in Kinect, such as the two people from Lego who were trying out one of the games and showing quite the interest in it. They basically had an entire section openly devoted to it and viewable by all, which to me seems to imply that they were quite confident in their product.

 

[Delta9]

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...tm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

Good impressions of driving in Forza with Kinect, and some nice comments about recognition in Your Shape. Looks like Forza will provide Kinect as a driving option, but retain the option to play with a standard controller.

Did they have to stand?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Did they have to stand?

Nice trolling. I'm sure if Kinect came under a different brand name there be some detractors that would suddenly be extolling its virtues.

We'll see if you can end up sitting to play some games. I hope so. If you can't, a racing game is not something I'd want to play with Kinect. At least with Joy Ride the've turned in into more of a full body racer, where you use your hips to drift. It's not something everyone would like, but at least it gives you a reason for standing.

What you're entirely missing is that the post suggests the skeletal tracking is accurate enough to pick up subtleties in hand movement. Driving is something that can feel incredibly terrible when done wrong. It has to have enough sensitivity to make quick movements. There have been some previews saying the driving feels very good, which suggests the hardware is capable. There have been some that said the opposite. Whether this is down to environmental differences, or issues with retaining calibration or initial calibration is something we'll have to wait and see about.

The comments about it being able to see his press badge and collar on his shirt shows the time of flight camera has reasonable fidelity to pick up those kinds of detail. The bowling game is also able to detect wrist rotations for spin on the ball, which suggests some sophisticated motion sensing. I've read previews that suggested it works and others that suggested it is not capable enough. Again, we'll have to see how much is an issue of environment, how much is an issue of calibration and whether it can be fixed or not.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm suggesting that the stage demo was not authentic. That's it. There must have been reasons for that. It would make no logical sense to stage a demo if the product worked flawlessly.

Taht would only be true if stage demos could be trusted to go 100% accordingly to plan with no technical glitches. Alternatively, if you're going to present a landmark product and want to be absolutely sure there are no freak issues, such as perhaps caused by stage-lighting which has no bearing whatsoever on the home experience, you could play it safe just to be extremely cautious.

The huge amount of show-floor use shows the system works. You're reading too much into a stage production. Hell, all proper stage productions are smoke and mirrors - that's where the phrase comes from!

For the rest of the posts, I'm simply not going to reply. I am, and always have been skeptic of this technology, and so far basic jumping, moving, and eye tracking doesn't convince me that it's here to stay...

And Wii's sales don't convince you either?

 

[liolio]

Oh it does work somewhat but what Ive said from day one is it wont work well enuf to use in most games.
Party + fitness etc games OK everything else not OK
I posted this in the Kinect Games thread only for my post to be deleted, someone replied yes everyone already knew that, I replied that's not true we've still got ppl believing that all manner of games are gonna be done with kinect. And low and behold Silent_Buddha said a couple of posts laster "oh itll be great if u could control RTS's with this"

Well in a competitive and fast pace gaming there's no way to use Kinect outside of head-tracking, for other type of games I differ.
The wiimote is not precise at all while playing Mario Kart, when My wife and her friends where playing Mario kart in US last Christmas on my brother in law Wii they could not have cared less about inaccuracy, jumps that fail, etc.
RTS... I may agree as it's pretty complicated it may involve voice command etc. which would feel weird to me while stand lone in my living I can see ARPG (diablo, torchlight, sacred) Child of eden is a proof of concept. But one will note that the on screen pointer is huge so it may work for a arpg given a proper camera and some assisted aiming not for something as complicated as un bunch of unity in a RTS. But who knows? We're used to given pace in game may slower pace may be acceptable if you feel more involved in the experience. I don't say it will happen I say I can't dismiss it before I can such an experiment.

The reason is cause 99% accuracy is not good enuf, its gotta be 100%, anything less than 100% in a FPS,platformer,driving whatever is just gonna piss the player off so much they wont play it.

Ageing controllers fails, buttons get loose, etc. Anyway I somehow agree but you had to take in account how much it adds to the experience and fun to play. If it resolves close to zero it's not worse the headache if you have fun playing with Kinect why not. And as long as it's fair say you don't face people using pad (or KB+M thinking to someone ) it's ceteris paribus. Not all the core gamers are that competitive super serious about ranking/ etc. I'm not. More it's more likely a minority within core gamers (so called hardcore gamers). Fun has to be taken in account even for core gamers.

I see they're talking about having forza4 controlled with kinetic, Im so confident of what Ive said all along that if this doesnt have the option to play with a normal controller (i.e. not only kinect only) Im willing to stick $100 on it, anyone wanna take my bet?
(crickets) come on anyone (please)

??? Really not clear, but if you think Forza 4 "the" exclusive racers for Ms system won't be accessible to the whole xbox users base you miss something imho

 

[patsu]

Ageing controllers fails, buttons get loose

While I like camera-based systems, the above point also applies to the camera. e.g., What if the Kinect motor or parts fail ? The whole experience may be affected, and it'd be more expensive to replace.

Both sensor-based and camera-based systems have their pros and cons. We need both.

EDIT: I would like to try the speech recognition again after all these years.

 

[Delta9]

Nice trolling. I'm sure if Kinect came under a different brand name there be some detractors that would suddenly be extolling its virtues.

We'll see if you can end up sitting to play some games. I hope so. If you can't, a racing game is not something I'd want to play with Kinect. At least with Joy Ride the've turned in into more of a full body racer, where you use your hips to drift. It's not something everyone would like, but at least it gives you a reason for standing.

What you're entirely missing is that the post suggests the skeletal tracking is accurate enough to pick up subtleties in hand movement. Driving is something that can feel incredibly terrible when done wrong. It has to have enough sensitivity to make quick movements. There have been some previews saying the driving feels very good, which suggests the hardware is capable. There have been some that said the opposite. Whether this is down to environmental differences, or issues with retaining calibration or initial calibration is something we'll have to wait and see about.

The comments about it being able to see his press badge and collar on his shirt shows the time of flight camera has reasonable fidelity to pick up those kinds of detail. The bowling game is also able to detect wrist rotations for spin on the ball, which suggests some sophisticated motion sensing. I've read previews that suggested it works and others that suggested it is not capable enough. Again, we'll have to see how much is an issue of environment, how much is an issue of calibration and whether it can be fixed or not.

I don't know about Joy Ride. I just watched some videos and it looked terrible and maybe half automated.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I don't know about Joy Ride. I just watched some videos and it looked terrible and maybe half automated.

Half automated how? Btw, I'm not saying Joy Ride is good. I'm just saying there's a reason for standing up to play it where with Forza you'd obviously rather be sitting since there's no reason for standing.

 

[liolio]

I don't know about Joy Ride. I just watched some videos and it looked terrible and maybe half automated.

Come on read Kotaku hand-on I linked. If anything the game seems to suck on its own Kinect or not

 

[Scott_Arm]

While I like camera-based systems, the above point also applies to the camera. e.g., What if the Kinect motor or parts fail ? The whole experience may be affected, and it'd be more expensive to replace.

Both sensor-based and camera-based systems have their pros and cons. We need both.

I'm pretty sure he's suggesting that analog controls will never retain 100% accuracy, whatever that means, as components do age and wear over time. Say your controller is used heavily. How do you know it has not worn to the point that it is now 98% of the accuracy it once had? You'd never know. Analog sticks and anolog buttons wear out, since they're mechanical.

Regardless, I don't think it's much of an argument for or against Kinect. Like Wii, people are not concerned so much about unattainable perfect accuracy as they are the experience. The only question is whether the accuracy is good enough to make the game fun, not how well the accuracy compares to a standard gamepad.

 

[Delta9]

Half automated how? Btw, I'm not saying Joy Ride is good. I'm just saying there's a reason for standing up to play it where with Forza you'd obviously rather be sitting since there's no reason for standing.

It looks like half the movements are on auto pilot following the track and with not real control.
Either way it didn't look good IMO,with clear movements not responding like speed burst.

 

[patsu]

I'm pretty sure he's suggesting that analog controls will never retain 100% accuracy, whatever that means, as components do age and wear over time. Say your controller is used heavily. How do you know it has not worn to the point that it is now 98% of the accuracy it once had? You'd never know. Analog sticks and anolog buttons wear out, since they're mechanical.

If the experience is bad enough (bad buttons or wonky sensor), the user will replace it. If it's not noticeable, then play some more. ^_^

To detect faulty controller (both Kinect and Move), the vendors should have diagnostic or user calibration tools built into the system.

These days, electronic parts can wear out too.

 

[liolio]

Aren't you guys taking the argument I put together to explain that pad are neither 100% accurate/reliable too seriously? Not that's it's not true but my point was mostly to show that accuracy is not everything to everyone, neither super competitive gaming even within core gamers. Kinect is not intend to make you the input for something like CoD that's pretty much clear.
Talk about automated show, well no one can prove one way or another and it's pretty much pointless as now we have hand-on from multiple sources.

 

[Scott_Arm]

If the experience is bad enough (bad buttons or wonky sensor), the users will replace it. If it's not noticeable, then play some more. ^_^

To detect faulty controller (both Kinect and Move), the vendors should have diagnostic or user calibration tools built into the system.

Electronic parts can wear out too.

I understand that, but it really has nothing to do with what he was talking about. The suggestion was accuracy has to be 100% perfect (whatever that is) or people will not play. I'm assuming he means accuracy relative to the gamepad. The thing is, one gamepad might not be as accurate as another gamepad because of wear and tear, and within a certain tolerance the user may not even know. You'll adapt to any change in the controller, up to a certain point, and will not notice degradation. I wear out controllers playing NHL, but usually I don't notice how bad they've actually gotten until I switch to the new one. The tolerance for accuracy in Kinect is unknown at this point, and it'll be hard to make comparisons of the intangibles. Obviously some people enjoy moving more than pushing buttons and than may overcome the loss in accuracy for some people with some games. That seams fairly obvious from the success of the Wii.

 

[patsu]

If you're talking about accuracy instead of reliability, I think the recognition accuracy depends more on the software. All the hardware does is to feed you the right data as fast as possible, and as precise as possible. e.g., WiiSports Resort can still work better than Sports Championship despite PS Move's higher precision.

However, there may be other factors that "change the game". e.g., Using PS Move to write may be easier than using Wiimote+ because of absolute positioning. Then again Wiimote+ can be complemented by Vitality Sensor.

EDIT: It kinda depends on the target audience too. If the game is a "simulator" (e.g., MLB 2010), it may put a different demand on the gamer and the system.