Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[RobertR1]

Have any of the games shown so far for Kinect have the ability for 4 players?

I ask because I keep seeing people do price comparisons and if 2 people is the limit for Kinect then the 150 price tag matches/beats sony's move offering (for 2 people+eye toy)

One of the dance game showed 3 people dancing. Not sure what the limit is though. Wouldn't be surprised to know that MS might only recommend 2. Still new tech that needs to mature.

 

[Scott_Arm]

It makes me think of Your Shape -- it kinda looked like they were dealing with the point cloud directly. I'd sort of like to see someone (a journalist, naturally) 'test' to see how well the blob thing on screen can differentiate limbs.

Has there been any hands on with EA Active 2.0 on Kinect? That would be a good place to check since the punching bag required fast movement and would certainly have overlapping body parts. The Your Shape kicking-and-punching- blocks demo had limbs crossing over other parts of the body as well.

 

[thatdude90210]

I wanna how know many Christmas wishes have been changed over to "wishing Kinect's failure" at this point.

The product itself hits the casual/family bulls eye. But the price point is going to be an issue. If it's $150 on top of something you already owned, no problem. But $150 on top of something you still have to buy, big problem. If MS can get a Kinect +360 bundle out at $250-299, they have a hit.

 

[obonicus]

I suspect we'll be looking at a $399 bundle to go against Sony's $399 Move bundle.

 

[RobertR1]

The product itself hits the casual/family bulls eye. But the price point is going to be an issue. If it's $150 on top of something you already owned, no problem. But $150 on top of something you still have to buy, big problem. If MS can get a Kinect +360 bundle out at $250-299, they have a hit.

Agreed. Bundle pricing will be key. Anything over $299 is a no go.

 

[Squilliam]

I always hate cost breakdowns because they completely ignore R&D costs, especially on the software side. To be honest, I don't think $150 is that bad. You pay once, and that's it. Compare to Wii and Move, it's about $50-75 worth of controllers for each player. Guess it depends how many people you intend to use it with.

Microsoft has more avenues than the cost of the unit to recoup those costs like for instance Live content, subscriptions and games. Also they are likely amortising the cost of the Natal project over several different applications as last time I heard they had about 12 Natal related projects ongoing in their Israel research centre.

Im not saying that it won't be $150, im just saying that it doesn't have to cost more than $100, I.E $40 cost + 5 misc/shipping + 30 MS margins + 25 store margins = $100 or however you want to split it even if you factor in large R+D expenditure.

 

[rabidrabbit]

One of the dance game showed 3 people dancing. Not sure what the limit is though. Wouldn't be surprised to know that MS might only recommend 2. Still new tech that needs to mature.

If you mean the MS conference showing, the two dancers might have been just extra, you know, there for the show, to make it look better. They were dancing a little behind the main dancer, which already sort of proves something.
It would have looked a bit pathetic if that (nerd) guy had been on the stage alone

 

[dragonelite]

Has this been posted yet Sonic Riders with kinect
http://www.destructoid.com/e3-10-i-m-worried-about-sonic-free-riders-guys-176672.phtml

 

[Cyan]

Might want to wait for official confirmation and response.

MS knows what will happen if they rush a product out the door. I don't think they will repeat the same mistake.

[Aiight, I deleted MfA's response]

This is the first I've heard of you being a moderator. I didn't know until now.

That would likely mean them selling the PS3 at a loss again. I think there's very little chance of them doing that. My personal opinion is that Sony view this more as a transitional product. Getting everyone used to motion controls on the Playstation, rather than expecting blockbuster sales like MS seem to expect with Kinect, atleast until they can drop the PS3's price anyway.

Actually, I am sorry I didn't phrase myself well. I wanted to mention a Move bundle with all the controllers included, plus the camera, for the full experience and people who already own a PS3 or casuals who want to play games using Move but they don't know exactly what components they need.

Next gen should be interesting from them. SCEI have been filing motion control patents since the 90's

Nintendo got there first and got ahead of both Microsoft and Sony in the innovation department. Sony had Eyetoy and those patents from the 90's, as you pointed out. Building upon that and the PS2 success they had a winner in their hands.

The thing is that Nintendo realized the true potential of the motion controls idea earlier, and we know the rest and how unexpected it was. But certainly the next generation will be very interesting, perhaps Wii will keep the throne.

That whole set of games has three difficulty levels for everything. The Easy mode has loads of assists making the game much easier, but the Hard level is pretty much a hardcore simulation. There was an interview on this.



You can only mitigate so much though. But actually some games are easy to calibrate this for. You just put the actual hit box as much forward as the amount of lag you need to compensate for. It's like driving a car from behind the car versus driving from the bumper view - your mind will have to adjust, but it's fairly easily done. And the actual lag is then only going to be an issue for things like tilting your racket or giving effects.

That said, the precision on the Move is going to make stuff like table tennis far superior to their competitors IF you're looking to get as realistic a replication. Adding 3D to that is going to bring that to a pretty extreme level of simulation I think. Same for golf - they showed it as a full sim. Not everyone will like that, and it is not necessary for most casuals, but it will add a level of depth.

Also, if Kinect has significant enough lag, that's going to make playing using Kinect online even harder. There's only so much lag you can compensate for.

It doesn't change my opinion on it though that Kinect will allow for some really awesome new game experiences, and same for the Move. I'm just thinking that right now, the Move controller has the potential to actually replace and enhance almost all gameplay experiences, including very core stuff, and that's something that has the potential to reach a lot of current gamers. Kinect on the other hand opens up possibilities for some completely new stuff that brings in new players. You don't need that many games to make that a success, but I don't feel that Microsoft quite has them yet (certainly with the most impressive titles now coming from third party again, though Microsoft won't care).

I'm glad all these systems exist anyway! Look forward to what they'll bring to the table.

I am happy with their existence too. Apart from the new ideas and improvements over the Wiimote, they can also extend the life cycle of these consoles, which were very powerful when they were launched already.

For traditional gamers seeing games like Rage, or Doom 4 make me also believe that this generation can last 5 more years.

Move can be very compatible with traditional games, or basically any PS3 game that's going to come out from now on. Kinect has -and needs- full support of MS because they have to.

Some new videos of Sonic Free Riders played by youngsters, very cool stuff:

2 Player mode:

A similar game played with Eyetoy:

And probably my favourite because it shows how natural it is to make movements without a controller in certain situations, like when he is flying:

A well known weakness becomes a strenght in those situations, and it's certainly better than having to memorize the button layout to do acrobatics or similar moves.

When I have to do acrobatics with a shoulder button -for instance in kart games- while in the air I usually forget about it and don't even try, or sometimes you just forget to make that move, or the correct button.

Without a controller it seems to feel like you can fool around naturally. :smile:

 

[Cyan]

Has this been posted yet Sonic Riders with kinect
http://www.destructoid.com/e3-10-i-m-worried-about-sonic-free-riders-guys-176672.phtml

I don't understand the complains because it's not like they have to do that all the time, just at intervals.

Now that I think of it, with the matter on hand, I think it would be a great idea if developers let people customize the controls.

Mainly for those who want to play sitting, or who'd rather prefer to play only using the hands.

 

[draconian]

Look at all these previous eyetoy games that failed with the casual...


This is nothing like Dance Central. It's not even really a dancing game.
EyeToy: Groove

EyeToy: Play

EyeToy: Kinetic

 

[Nesh]

It is very sad for Sony for being so close a generation earlier, but completely abandoning the evolution of the idea later on, which left comp0etiton take over.

I am pretty sure Phil Harrison saw the potential but nobody heard him which left a bitter taste. I remember reading that he wanted to develop on the casual market potential with similar titles and experiences.

 

[wco81]

True that Kinectic only works when you're standing?

So MS is offering a stand-up experience while Apple talks about sitting back on the couch with the iPad?

 

[dlm]

The Wildfire video is pretty impressive.

Of course, there are some limitations that aren't as clear from the video (aside from the busier it got, the more false misses it started to register).

The biggest problem apparently was lighting. The author of that video said that he basically needed to setup up light sources a couple feet in front of him on either side and mess around with the background to ensure adequate contrast for the camera to work.

This app also obviously isn't generating a skeleton (would it even be feasible processing-wise to do that on the PS2?). It appears to just look for extremities and then register a "hit" anytime an in-game object gets obscured.

You have to wonder though looking at something like Kinect that (in theory) solves those problems why Sony just sent EyeToy out to die. The potential is clearly there.

 

[Arwin]

Confirmation about the dualshock can still sub for the navigation controller. This is rather good news:

1. I have played Flower and Motorstorm 2 single handed - particularly the sixaxis is very suitable for this kind of application, as it is very light. I think it's particularly good for people with big hands.
2. you'll be able to find out if navigation controller is something that will be used a lot and is better than replacing that functionality with a second move controller or sticking to dualshock controls, for say, games like Killzone 3. Might save you some cash.
3. in case there is actually a two player game that supports both the navi and the move, then even if I did buy a navi, I could give it to a friend while I play using the sixaxis, or we could both play using the two sixaxes (and one DS3) I already have.
4. if you already have a PS Eye (I do), then you can start with buying just a single move. As some existing games will have the functionality built in, you don't even need to buy a game. So I can get in on the action for under the price of a new game.

However, right now I still feel that two Move controllers should be able to do almost any job better than one move and one navi. Why? Because I think if you can move your reticule in the x plane with a move controller, you should be able to move your character in the z plane with another one just as easily.

Anyway, I'll very likely get two Move controllers at launch to begin with, and take it from there.

http://www.destructoid.com/psa-dualshock-can-sub-for-ps-move-navigation-controller-176815.phtml

 

[Arwin]

You have to wonder though looking at something like Kinect that (in theory) solves those problems why Sony just sent EyeToy out to die. The potential is clearly there.

The potential was there, but not just that - it is often forgotten that EyeToy was pretty successful in Europe, where it launched and was marketed properly. SCEA and SCEJ just completely failed to pick up on it, just like they ignored great casual titles like Buzz and Singstar. This was indeed one of the biggest frustrations for Phil Harrison, which he kept close to his chest right up til he left the company.

That said, the EyeToy technology was too limiting to ever become as big a success as something like the Wii, and if you have enough experience with it, you recognise the important progress made in Kinect right away. It is not for nothing that Richard Marx professed his love for the technology. But it is also not for nothing that they chose not to go that route.

Eventually though, at least in theory the Kinect tech should win out once it is fast enough and detailed enough. Eventually that too will get near lagless with sub-mm accuracy.

 

[Nesh]

The potential was there, but not just that - it is often forgotten that EyeToy was pretty successful in Europe, where it launched and was marketed properly. SCEA and SCEJ just completely failed to pick up on it, just like they ignored great casual titles like Buzz and Singstar. This was indeed one of the biggest frustrations for Phil Harrison, which he kept close to his chest right up til he left the company.

That said, the EyeToy technology was too limiting to ever become as big a success as something like the Wii, and if you have enough experience with it, you recognise the important progress made in Kinect right away. It is not for nothing that Richard Marx professed his love for the technology. But it is also not for nothing that they chose not to go that route.

Eventually though, at least in theory the Kinect tech should win out once it is fast enough and detailed enough. Eventually that too will get near lagless with sub-mm accuracy.

The EyeToy technology may have been limiting but the crazy thing is that Sony has been working on various Motion Control schemes since the PS2 days.

I barely remember them even demonstrating a Move/Wii alike controller on the PS2 around in 2000.

This involved sword fighting and using your hand gestures to fly in a 3D plane,

Then they had augmented reality demonstrations at E3 for the PS3 before its release!

I cant believe they were so forward compared to anyone else and ended being "last".

Nintendo came first with the Wii, and MS came with anmproved version of the EyeToy which can do lots of the things that Wii can and their initial concepts could do.

 

[Gon0S]

Just a big question about Kinect.

All presentation of Kinect games are showing large room with a really fair amount of space between device and player.

I just wish to remind to american people that the rest of the world do not have so large car as your Wheelies and mini trucks, do not even think about the size of the TV room.

At best setting, I can have 2 meters beetween my TV and the couch. Do you really imagine I can plan Kinect with less than 1,5M between the player and natal ? I already own PS3+ PS Eye and I never manage to get a full body on screen. Is Natal getting a fish eye for smaller space cabinet ?
Even going further xwith this : how much space is needed to get 2 or 3 or even 4 person waving their arms wide ?? I am really wondering how multiplayer will be possible in european rooms. Maybe only for our king in his palace (I am living in france) ?

 

[Arwin]

I'm in the same position as you. Would probably have to stand on the couch to even stand a chance. The most optimistic figure I've heard is that Kinect can work with 1,5-3.0 meters range of your TV - if true, that might still do the trick, but I'm also 1.92m which makes this even worse.

I have one lucky bonus, which is that I have a TV on a moveable arm, that I can extend and tilt almost 90 degrees. As the living room is two rooms connected with a fairly big opening in between, that extends my range to up to 4-5 meters, which should do the trick, at least for one or two players. But if this would be the way I have to play, it's not going to be used a lot.

My stance is: wait and see. The launch date will come, reviews will come in, people will give their impressions, and we'll know all the facts by then. I don't pre-order often, but in this case I'd actually recommend against it.

 

[(((interference)))]

Some good Kinect write ups from the tech blogs:

http://i.engadget.com/2010/06/17/kinect-guide-a-preview-and-explanation-of-microsofts-new-full/
It's confirmed that the motorised base can pan as well as tilt to track users.

Gizmodo was very impressed by what kinect brings to the table:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/06/xbox-360-kinect-puts-play-back-in-gameplay/#more-402379

“What do you think?” asks Wil Mozell, a Microsoft GM who oversees many of the companies designing Kinect’s important launch titles.

“It’s great,” I say. “But what about the lag? Will you ever fully eliminate it?”

“We can get rid of a lot of it. Keep in mind, these games are 80-to-85% there. There’s still lots of optimisation left to do.”

“But what about the hardcore games? The FPSs, the gameplay that requires 100% accuracy?” I push.

“Kinect isn’t going to replace the controllers that have worked for those types of games for the last decade – that’s not what we’re trying to do. Kinect will work alongside those controllers for hardcore games. For throwing a grenade, for vocal commands, for…”

“For head tracking??”

“Yes, head tracking! Exactly.” He gets a big smile. He wants to say more. Bound by Microsoft confidentiality agreements, he can’t.

Ars Technica mentions that MS is being coy on whether the Forza title is a new game or some sort of Kinect enabled Forza 3, but it is running on a new engine at 60fps and with more cars on the track.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...kinect-looks-silly-feels-great.ars?old=mobile

I asked if the added Kinect support had much overhead. Is it chewing through processing cycles? "We have our own engine," I was told, as if that explained everything

So what, did Turn 10 just suck at optimising Forza 3? Would seem so if they can retain the same graphical fidelity + more AI while taking the 10-15% Kinect overhead hit.

Has grandmaster had a look at this Forza demo to see whether any cutbacks have been made over F3?

Also

Playing with your hands out, pretending to hold a steering wheel may look goofy, but I'll be damned if it doesn't work well and feel good. I was able to make subtle corrections to my steering, and I performed very well on my run. Of course, there seemed to be an assist or two turned on, and a representative said that they were still looking at multiple ways to handle acceleration—it was handled for you automatically in this particular demo—so there are still some questions to be answered.

PS: for the record it is very hard to do multi quote posts on an iPhone!